I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
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11-08-2013, 08:16 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
Okay, I release you from atheism. Go and sin no more.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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11-08-2013, 08:19 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
Sounds to me like you are a gnostic atheist. That do anything for ya?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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11-08-2013, 08:24 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(11-08-2013 08:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-08-2013 07:57 AM)Freethinker2 Wrote:  Too fast talking and me not being able to get enough words for to be sure
I know what she really talk about.
...
what word and at what time? I barely get what she say.

I really don't understand your angst.

No one here is disagreeing that people make up gods.

The existence of belief in gods is real, but that does not say anything about the existence of gods.

Can you summarize what is making you so upset?

1. No one here is disagreeing that people make up gods.
yes usually almost all atheists do agree. there are always exceptions
but you are right almost every atheist do agree.

2. atheists agree but see that is either
2a. totally irrelevant
2b. or that that view are so trivially true
that it is not only irrelevant but ridiculous to even mention.
3. almost all atheists pay lip service to Anthropology of religion
that all religions are man made but they don't act upon that knowledge.

4. nothing happens after they confirmed that they too
know that Anthropology of religion gets it right. They agree
and then nothing more happens.

5 then they go back to philosophy and ask you.
Do you believe that God exists independently of you
and are supernatural and creator of the Universe and so on.

6 they show very clearly that they don't care about
the insight pf Anthropology of religion that religions are man made.

The insight that I take from Anthropology of religion
are that the gods of each religious tradition are also made made.

that means that to ask if the god really exist is like asking
if Microsoft have their OP system or use Linux or if Apple
have their own Operating system. It is a sure bet because
they set it up like that they created their operating system to exist.

To ask if God exist is to not get that God is made to exist by that religion.
Maybe not the best analogy but hopefully you are generous
to accept it or suggest a better one if it is too gross.
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11-08-2013, 08:32 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
this part

"The existence of belief in gods is real,
but that does not say anything about the existence of gods."

Yes that is true and the religions know nothing about
any such existence of a god or gods either.

Unless they claim that their particular God is a kind of reference to that
God that really exist. sure they are clever enough to set it up like that
but still their clever rhetoric that you refer to are still part of the creation of
their particular religion. They set it up clever enough to take such into consideration
but they know nothing about any such existing gods if these exists.

But they use clever rhetoric to give that impression. Read what Clifford Geertz
said already 1966 about how they make up religions. citation

According to Geertz, religion is "
(1) a system of symbols which acts to
(2) establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in men by
(3) formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and
(4) clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that
(5) the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic" (Geertz 1966).

End of quote.

Did you notice what he really say?

"clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality
that the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic"

that is how religions are made to look like they point to a factual god
or a theoretically possible god or an eventually existing god.
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11-08-2013, 06:12 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
the more I think of it maybe the only solution is to use an adjective in front of atheist

it is impossible to get atheists to agree that I am not an atheist.
they say that the definition makes me one even if I don't want to.

So by definition I am a

Anti-philosophy atheist. Definition of Anti-philosophy atheist.

a person that are forced to be an atheist by the weak atheist
definition and that person don't self identify as atheist
but the active atheists tell him there is no escape due to logic.

So I am decidedly an Anti-philosophy atheist.

I maybe can reconcile or accept that compromise.
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11-08-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(11-08-2013 06:12 PM)Freethinker2 Wrote:  the more I think of it maybe the only solution is to use an adjective in front of atheist

it is impossible to get atheists to agree that I am not an atheist.
they say that the definition makes me one even if I don't want to.

So by definition I am a

Anti-philosophy atheist. Definition of Anti-philosophy atheist.

a person that are forced to be an atheist by the weak atheist
definition and that person don't self identify as atheist
but the active atheists tell him there is no escape due to logic.

So I am decidedly an Anti-philosophy atheist.

I maybe can reconcile or accept that compromise.

What is your problem with just 'atheist'? Your explanations have made no sense.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-08-2013, 09:34 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
Gnostic atheist? That's every bit as crazy as gnostic theist.

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12-08-2013, 12:41 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(11-08-2013 08:00 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(11-08-2013 07:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are confusing the existence of the belief in gods with the belief in the existence of gods.

It is really very simple.

Or, to put it another way...
Gods do not exist.
The concept of gods does exist.

Thumbsup

Yes I have the delusion that I actually get that
but I struggle to find logical words for that this part

The concept of gods includes the belief that God exist.
the religious traditions has build that into their faith.

You can not separate that from the whole equation.

With reservation that my words fail to hit home.
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12-08-2013, 12:44 AM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2013 12:59 AM by Freethinker2.)
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(11-08-2013 09:34 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Gnostic atheist? That's every bit as crazy as gnostic theist.

don't blame it on me. I where not the guy that came up with it.

It is standard atheist philosophy. wikipedia and almost every book
on atheism by atheists has such texts mentioning gnostic atheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Explicit atheism most likely is same as gnostic atheism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_atheism
It says (Redirected from Gnostic atheism)
and they have given the whole entry this name

Negative and positive atheism

so the term gnostic atheism and gnostic theism may be on their way out
replaced by positive explicit strong and hard atheism Smile
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12-08-2013, 12:51 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(11-08-2013 08:16 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Okay, I release you from atheism. Go and sin no more.

that was very kind of you. Now we only have to get the other atheists
to approve of it too. Smile

gnostic atheist

I have been a very aggressive anti-theist for some 30 years
so maybe they include them in gnostic atheist.

I am anti-philosophy so I don't know what they think about it.

My latest attempt to get understood is to say
that I am a reluctant atheist but reluctant maybe
is a too academic word so I change it to unwilling

I am an unwilling atheist. I trust that has to be compatible
with the list of possible positions because very few protest
against the adjective apatheistic atheist. So being an unwilling
is not much different from apatheistic atheist.

thanks for releasing me that was very nice of you.
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