I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
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27-10-2015, 05:23 PM
RE: I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
(17-10-2015 12:59 PM)epronovost Wrote:  They were surveyed a few years ago. Most pornstar choose to do this to solve quickly money problem or were litterally scammed into it by producers who claim they had friends in the mainstream theatre, cinema and television industrie. Many pornstar face problems linked to poor mental health due to the stress caused by their job and ITS were very common amongst them because safe sex isn't important in the mainstream porn industry.

Show me this survey so I can shred it with the loads of evidence that , as a whole, women in porn have higher levels of confidence, social support, and of course sexual satisfaction. Not to mention the shitloads of money they make. People who shoehorn bullshit to fit thier own preconceived notions are no different than the sheep in the pews.

I don't even really care for porn, but I will destroy anyone I think is advocating for ANY laws regulating it. Even if porn is offensive to people, or even degrading in some eyes This is free speech, whether you like it or not. People who use the child and rape porn as an argument are just as clueless, child porn is a crime, rape is a crime, that is completely different than just porn, and correlating the two is just more bullshit. I've seen so many times all these people who just need to get laid claiming that somehow adult films promote rape, it is complete and utter garbage. There is not a single piece of evidence indicating this, and plenty indicating the opposite. People need to get over this kind of stuff, free means free. It doesn't mean free unless I offend your sensibilities.
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27-10-2015, 05:48 PM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 05:56 PM by epronovost.)
RE: I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2629520/

Here is the best one I could find in english and free distribution. There is very little quality research about the porn industry because pornstar themselves hate to be under scrutiny for security reasons or because they fear to loose their job due to public outcry (many of them are working under pseudonyme and their families are unaware of their activities). The fact the that a lot of porn production companies are owned by organised crime (just like many topless/naked dancer bars) is far from being a secret. Most porn distributing site are also a nest for pirated movies and video stolen from the original production companies. The servers used to host those site are also frequently an asset of organised crime groups. Has for the fictionnal depiction of sexual violence encouraging the development of real sexual violence, this is called the spillover hypothesis. It has been demonstrated false for murder or more «mundane» form of violence because there is strong non-violence message in our social habits and teachings to compensate. Sex, being frequently a taboo subject that sees very little quality information distributed, doesn't have such a barrier and the spillhover hypothesis has demonstrated to be much more solid when it came to gender representation and sexual violence, but especially psychological violence.

PS: As for you take on freedom, you can guess from my signature that we won't agree that much on it, but will at least agree on the basics.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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27-10-2015, 06:17 PM
RE: I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
Even if the spillover hypothesis applied to porn depicting fictionalized violent sexual acts, which I would argue that it probably isn't even possible to prove, those type of films are the extreme minority of the total adult industry. For the simple reason that those type of films are attractive to very few people relative to the entire porn audience. As for the rest of the arguments, being afraid to tell thier family, porn being a criminal enterprise, etc.. These are all symptoms of the stigma of pornography perpetuated by the very people who actively try to abolish it. That is to say, the taboo that you yourself said exists is the cause of these things, not the porn itself. If people would stop being such hyper offended prudes about everything and recognize the human body and the sexual acts in which it partakes for what they are, absolutely normal, and frankly beautiful aspects of being human, these problems would not exist. There would be no shame, it wouldn't be associated with criminality, and it definitely wouldn't be so understudied^^

As for our disagreements on freedom in general, I happen to agree with your sig. There just needs to be some definition of terms applied. I have a feeling we aren't as far off as one might think. Smile
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27-10-2015, 06:46 PM
RE: I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
I would like to discuss more about pornography, its distribution model, its content, its business model and practice, its perception in our society and its impact on women's rights with you. Pornography is a very wide subject that cannot be broadly painted and easily categorised. It require nuances and deep analysis. Alas, I am already in a debate right now and I pretty sure the forum rules prohibit graphic depiction of sex and links toward pornographic image and video. Because of it, I would say its pretty impossible to have a serious debate about it here. To compensate, I would encourage you to support the funding social research and high profile feminists organisations. The later tend to be backing financialy and technicall most of the research on the porn industry and don't worry about their bias there is pro-porn, anti-porn and porn-skeptic feminists. I am of the later group.

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27-10-2015, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 07:00 PM by RinChi.)
RE: I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
I would also add that the "spillover hypothesis" is exactly the same argument that those in the "Anti-Video Game" business have been using for years, which has been widely and repeatedly rebuked and debunked save for the instances when the men playing were already prone to violence. So I suppose the only logical conclusion we can come to is that we need to completely sanitize all media in our culture for violence of any kind so that this sub sect of men can't get thier violence prone paws on it? I mean, surely if this holds true for porn and video games, it logically follows other forms of media At very least other visual forms, movies, TV, magazines?

Sorry and I almost forgot to shred the report, not only is It a government report which unfortunately is always dubious, one of those who ran the study is a longtime reformed pornstar who has an interest in "exposing" the industry for his own financial gain. Never mind the fact that literally 100% of thier "evidence" is purely anecdotal. 3rd party anecdotes no less! The study is basically a series of interviews, I would argue that is not a study but a survey, which is an entirely different beast. Very scientific.

EDIT: OH shoot, you got in again before I could add this. Fair enough, we can leave it there. Will you link your other debate? I would love to read, and maybe even contribute if it's a topic with which I'm comfortable. Who knows, we may even agree Smile
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27-10-2015, 07:28 PM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 07:55 PM by epronovost.)
RE: I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
(27-10-2015 06:48 PM)RinChi Wrote:  I would also add that the "spillover hypothesis" is exactly the same argument that those in the "Anti-Video Game" business have been using for years, which has been widely and repeatedly rebuked and debunked save for the instances when the men playing were already prone to violence. So I suppose the only logical conclusion we can come to is that we need to completely sanitize all media in our culture for violence of any kind so that this sub sect of men can't get thier violence prone paws on it? I mean, surely if this holds true for porn and video games, it logically follows other forms of media At very least other visual forms, movies, TV, magazines?

Sorry and I almost forgot to shred the report, not only is It a government report which unfortunately is always dubious, one of those who ran the study is a longtime reformed pornstar who has an interest in "exposing" the industry for his own financial gain. Never mind the fact the literally 100% of thier "evidence" is purely anecdotal. 3rd party anecdotes no less! The study is basically a series of interviews, I would argue that is not a study but a survey, which is an entirely different beast. Very scientific.

The spillover hypothesis applies only to sexual representation and sexual violence (mostly psychological). It doesn't apply to more «mundane» form of violence like assault or murders for the reason I mentionned earlier. The hypothesis is the same in both case, but in one case it was substanciated while in the other it wasn't. You don't especially need to «sanitize» media since the spillover effect can be negated by information and education on the subject of sex, gender stereotypes and conjugal violence. I would also point out that I qualified it of survey, its not a scientific study because of the size of the sample being far too small. Yes, it's these are annectodal events, but they do hint toward a problem and we should dig more. Then again, having pornstar participating to those kind of study is difficult has mentionned before.

Interviewing people is an standard practice in sociology and psychology and their technics seem to be pretty standard too. These are interviews in an informal setting with a tight grid of observation. We use them all the time in the mental health domain. As for the credence of the researchers, all of them but one seem to have a pretty standard curriculum and are trustworthy. The only one with ties to the porn industry is actually a porn producer himself and opposed to ban on porn, but critical of the fact that very few production companies force the use of condoms in all their scenes and offer very little health insurrence plans covering STDs. I would also like to note that if you have no serious proof of data manipulation in the survey (or a similar survey/study showing the opposite conclusion), your argument commits a fallacy of appeal to motive and maybe a bit of poisonning the well. There is another one, but I can only link you to the resume. You will notice that two of the researcher are the same.

Here is another one. Notice that two of the researchers are the same, but this time William Margold isn't participating. I will say though that their sample, desite being larger was handled in a less usual fashion.
http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/1...s6206_0639

PS: My other debate is on the Problem of evil. Not at all the same subject. If that interest you here is the link. But if you want to participate, you will have to do it on the thread linked bellow the first one. It's a 1 vs 1 debate.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...em-of-evil
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...em-of-evil

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27-10-2015, 08:32 PM
RE: I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
Since you continued.... Big Grin

So if I'm understanding you right, supposing the "spillover hypothesis", which from what I can tell has more to do with stress levels in the workplace causing higher demands of your partner at home, which could apply to virtually every workplace imaginable, was an actual thing with actual evidence, we could solve it with education and information? Seems to me that if it's so easy to negate, maybe porn isn't the problem many make it out to be. Sounds like it's our ignorance causing the problem, and has really nothing to do with the scenarios on the screen.

Regarding the "survey", I never postulated that any manipulation occurred, I merely suggested that there is grounds for skepticism when you have self interests involved. Granted, that is indeed a fallacy of appeal to motive, but I can accept that. Smile I will also maintain that anecdotes, however useful they may be in the "mental health domain", are not evidence. There is no argument to be had here, sure they may indicate something, you may even make some pretty good inferences from them, but they are not evidence. They serve as proof of nothing, and they may not be used to establish correlation or causation.

Numbers on the other hand, can be used to at very least tentatively establish a basis for correlation, as in this study showing the relation of sex crimes to the availability of porn.
http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/DIAM/effe...graphy.htm

Of particular interest are the figures on Japan. In the 80s, Japan saw a significant surge in the amount of pornographic material available due to various cultural factors as well as government views. You will notice that not only does the instance of sex crimes not increase, it sharply decreases. As it has done in other areas that have experienced similar changes.

I'll go ahead and throw this one in as well to substantiate the claims I made in my first post.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23167939

But look, I get it, I do. It's distasteful to people, sometimes even to me. It's a human reaction to try and get rid of things that make you feel uncomfortable, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The fact remains there isn't a single shred of actual evidence that pornography in itself represents some public harm, or indeed, even works against some public good. The feelings some people feel when they see this stuff are vestiges from another time, a cultural parasite that never let go. I would urge you to stop seeing the human form engaged in what can only be described as a beautiful (and often really sexy^^) act as distasteful, or dirty. It's not. Even in the kinky ones. Let it go.

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. -Thomas Jefferson

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. -David Hume
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28-10-2015, 08:26 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2015 10:25 AM by epronovost.)
RE: I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
I think you misunderstand what the spillover effect is the context of pornography consumption. The spillover in that case is that the image of women and sex in general vehiculated in pornographic material is transfered to the general image the subject has on women and sex in general. For exemple, they are more likely to objectify women, «slut shaming» them or considering some relatively dominant sexual practices has normal practices. Furthermore, it can, in some context, mislead the subject on what constitute clear enlighten concent. That's the spillover effect we are talking about. There is many types of spillover effect, don't confuse one with the others. This spillover effect take place because the images vehiculated by the porn industry and other media that strives on porn-bating like celebrity tabloid magasines are dominating media while good, comprehensive sexual education distributed by professionnal to children and teenagers age 9 to 16 is a very rare requirement of any education system. At adult age, very few people actualy take the time to read up on sexuality so simply carry over their perceptions and only modify it through their personnal life. In most cases, this is relatively harmless, but it's, amogst other thing, responsible for the ambiant sexism prevailing in western society (and also the japanese one).

Sex crimes and pornography are indeed unrealated because the spillover effect doesn't apply to violent crimes. The type of sexual misconduct pornography does participate in generating is sexism, higher occurences of verbal harassment (AKA cat calling) and a higher tolerence from all party to manipulative technics when it comes to love relationship. These behavior are extremely unhealthy for a society and in certain context would be criminal, but they come unreported. Pressuring/manipulating, without using force or direct threat, a man or woman to participate in certain sexual practices with which they are uncomfortable is not that unfrequent especially for teenagers and young adults with little sexual and relationnal experience (not mentionning poor education on the subject, a key component in my opinion), but it's unethical and unhealthy. It should not be tolerated, but it is.

Your second study is actually in the same vein the the first one I have presented. Both agree on several points. Pornstar aren't especially more abused in their childhood, are usually more sex positive, use more recreationnal drugs and have greater self estime. The problems starts when their 15 minutes of fame ends or after several years in the industry. Without the «high» generated by their newfound popularity and money, the after effects of their work catch up with them. They are more likely to developp relationnal issues, many suffer from depression and, after a few years in the industry, many develop intense stress in their intimate life. The stress from their job (yes performing like that in such a competitive industry is extremely stressful) carry over in their private sexual life which can causes a form of PTSD. That constitute a second form of spillover effect. That's not counting the effect on physical health from anal tear due to poor lubrification, erectile disfonction caused by regular drug use to enhance an erection to STDs which are all relatively common occurences.

That's why I militate for the following measures.

1) Usages of contraception, especially a condom (male or female), should be mandatory for all pornstars and in all porn production/distribution companies. It's the equivalent of forcing people to wear a hard hat on a construction site. Its a basic safety measure against a very real risk.

2) Porn production and distribution companies should offer health insurrences and checkups to their employees that covers detection and treatment of STDs and symptomes of depression/PTSD. Its the equivalent of giving safety classes and health insurrence to construction workers. that's also a basic.

3) Illegal porn distribution sites and companies with ties with organised crime should be investigated at shutdown when necessary and possible.

4) The following types of porn should be illegal and remain so if they are already (exceptions could be considered for animated porn): Infantile and juvenile porn, bestial porn, necrophiliac porn, revenge porn, «sharking» porn and of course rape porn (not simulated rape, actual rape being filmed and distributed).

5) Pornographic material should standardise their classification technics and stop inserting dominating/humiliating sexual practices outside of their niche material or even in the exact opposite kind of porn. If you want to see that stuff, knock yourself out, but be more respectful of those who aren't interested in your specific fantasy.

6) Put greater emphasis in educational porn and add legal disclaimers on all video (that's just for legal simplicity).

7) Make comprehensive, quality sexual education an educative mission for all education system from age 9 to 16. This doesn't concern the porn industry itself, even if several pornstar have produced educative material on a variety of subject linked to sexuality, but it's necessary in my opinion to allow a society to enjoy pornography in a safer and more pleasent way. It would also reduce negative stereotypes that affect the mental, social and physical health of pornstars. It's a win-win solution.

8) Augment security measures on their website to prevent stolen credit card and identity theft (porn website are extremely easy to hack apparently).

Has you can see, I think there is very little objectional demand in my list. In no way do I demand porn to be banned or even more restricted. I am only intersted in improving the practice of this industry to make healthier and safer for its employees, clients and the society they live in. If I had to choose a single thing in all that list I would chose number 7 has the most important one than 1 and 2.

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28-10-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
(28-10-2015 08:26 AM)epronovost Wrote:  I think you misunderstand what the spillover effect is the context of pornography consumption. The spillover in that case is that the image of women and sex in general vehiculated in pornographic material is transfered to the general image the subject has on women and sex in general. For exemple, they are more likely to objectify women, «slut shaming» them or considering some relatively dominant sexual practices has normal practices. Furthermore, it can, in some context, mislead the subject on what constitute clear enlighten concent. That's the spillover effect we are talking about. There is many types of spillover effect, don't confuse one with the others. This spillover effect take place because the images vehiculated by the porn industry and other media that strives on porn-bating like celebrity tabloid magasines are dominating media while good, comprehensive sexual education distributed by professionnal to children and teenagers age 9 to 16 is a very rare requirement of any education system. At adult age, very few people actualy take the time to read up on sexuality so simply carry over their perceptions and only modify it through their personnal life. In most cases, this is relatively harmless, but it's, amogst other thing, responsible for the ambiant sexism prevailing in western society (and also the japanese one).

Sex crimes and pornography are indeed unrealated because the spillover effect doesn't apply to violent crimes. The type of sexual misconduct pornography does participate in generating is sexism, higher occurences of verbal harassment (AKA cat calling) and a higher tolerence from all party to manipulative technics when it comes to love relationship. These behavior are extremely unhealthy for a society and in certain context would be criminal, but they come unreported. Pressuring/manipulating, without using force or direct threat, a man or woman to participate in certain sexual practices with which they are uncomfortable is not that unfrequent especially for teenagers and young adults with little sexual and relationnal experience (not mentionning poor education on the subject, a key component in my opinion), but it's unethical and unhealthy. It should not be tolerated, but it is.

Your second study is actually in the same vein the the first one I have presented. Both agree on several points. Pornstar aren't especially more abused in their childhood, are usually more sex positive, use more recreationnal drugs and have greater self estime. The problems starts when their 15 minutes of fame ends or after several years in the industry. Without the «high» generated by their newfound popularity and money, the after effects of their work catch up with them. They are more likely to developp relationnal issues, many suffer from depression and, after a few years in the industry, many develop intense stress in their intimate life. The stress from their job (yes performing like that in such a competitive industry is extremely stressful) carry over in their private sexual life which can causes a form of PTSD. That constitute a second form of spillover effect. That's not counting the effect on physical health from anal tear due to poor lubrification, erectile disfonction caused by regular drug use to enhance an erection to STDs which are all relatively common occurences.

So a few things here, you start again trying to clarify the "spillover effect", I understand fully what you are trying to say here, but it doesn't make it true. The premise as a whole is a shaky hypothesis at best, relying on purely anecdotal evidence and has not been substantiated to any acceptable level. You go on to assert, that not only is this a real thing, that it is directly responsible in this context for males not understanding what consent actually means. This is an assertion that has absolutely no basis in reality, and frankly is a bit insulting to the intelligence. You then claim that it is responsible for the rise in instances of "cat calling", are you seriously suggesting that there is more "cat calling" today than there was in the 1950s lets say? I think not, even with the rise in reporting, it's not even close. There are orders of magnitude more porn available now than there was then, these two things are completely unrelated. I certainly wont claim that the decrease in "cat calling" from the 1950s to now is the result of more porn, because that would be just as ridiculous. It is a direct reflection of the population's cultural evolution, the views we as a whole have about women, thier rights, and thier empowerment in society. Did porn play a role in that, hard to say, but it certainly didn't have a measurable negative impact.

The final part here, perhaps the most salient, is about the effect after the "ride ends" if you'll pardon the phrase^^. Let's say these claims were all true, despite being based on nothing more than anecdotes. Are we to assume that these people know nothing about these risks when they started in the business? Are we to assume these risks are exclusive to the porn industry? I've seen many a Hollywood star crash and burn after losing popularity. Are there not all sorts of risks associated with all sorts of occupations. But most of all, and this part is really important, if not themselves, who gets to decide how these people live thier lives? Are we to be so patronizing and belittling to assert that somehow we know what's best for them? That they are incapable of comprehending the risks they pose to thier own bodies and psyches? Or for that matter how to mitigate those risks? I say that is about as contrary to the spirit and ideas of our country as it gets. Not to mention really damn insulting. If you want to advocate more education, fine. As a matter of fact, I'm all for it. But it isn't the porn industry's obligation or responsibility to do. And again speaks more to our own ignorance as a society, not to the effects of porn.


(28-10-2015 08:26 AM)epronovost Wrote:  1) Usages of contraception, especially a condom (male or female), should be mandatory for all pornstars and in all porn production/distribution companies. It's the equivalent of forcing people to wear a hard hat on a construction site. Its a basic safety measure against a very real risk.

2) Porn production and distribution companies should offer health insurrences and checkups to their employees that covers detection and treatment of STDs and symptomes of depression/PTSD. Its the equivalent of giving safety classes and health insurrence to construction workers. that's also a basic.

100% agree here, brothels in Nevada have been using these policies for years now to great effect. Not a single reported case of HIV or unwanted pregnancy.

(28-10-2015 08:26 AM)epronovost Wrote:  3) Illegal porn distribution sites and companies with ties with organised crime should be investigated at shutdown when necessary and possible.

4) The following types of porn should be illegal and remain so if they are already (exceptions could be considered for animated porn): Infantile and juvenile porn, bestial porn, necrophiliac porn, revenge porn, «sharking» porn and of course rape porn (not simulated rape, actual rape being filmed and distributed).

8) Augment security measures on their website to prevent stolen credit card and identity theft (porn website are extremely easy to hack apparently).

All I will say here, is that criminal enterprises of all types should be combated and shut down whenever possible, this is in no way a critique of porn. As for the extreme niche porn you list, all of which are illegal acts in themselves with the exception of revenge porn, which is quickly becoming illegal everywhere, exclude themselves from the conversation, these things are not porn, they are criminal acts caught on tape, there is a distinct difference which I don't think I need to make a case for here. I suppose maybe there's a deeper conversation here about what qualifies porn, another day perhaps. Suffice to say, Agreed as well. Though I must confess, I don't know what "sharking" porn is.


(28-10-2015 08:26 AM)epronovost Wrote:  5) Pornographic material should standardise their classification technics and stop inserting dominating/humiliating sexual practices outside of their niche material or even in the exact opposite kind of porn. If you want to see that stuff, knock yourself out, but be more respectful of those who aren't interested in your specific fantasy.

Not sure I follow you on this one, are you saying that they are arbitrarily say, throwing rape scenes into "traditional" porn? If so I would challenge you to show me something like this, I've seen my fair share of porn and can rightly say I have never encountered this. If in fact it does happen, the market regulates this kind of thing on it's own. If I'm a porn guy and I buy, lets say a "Mature" or maybe a "Librarian" porn and it for some reason has a rape scene in it, you can bet your ass I won't be buying videos from that company anymore. There is no need for regulation or litigation here.

(28-10-2015 08:26 AM)epronovost Wrote:  6) Put greater emphasis in educational porn and add legal disclaimers on all video (that's just for legal simplicity).

7) Make comprehensive, quality sexual education an educative mission for all education system from age 9 to 16. This doesn't concern the porn industry itself, even if several pornstar have produced educative material on a variety of subject linked to sexuality, but it's necessary in my opinion to allow a society to enjoy pornography in a safer and more pleasent way. It would also reduce negative stereotypes that affect the mental, social and physical health of pornstars. It's a win-win solution.

Let's start with disclaimers. I think you mean something like those old FBI warnings on VHS cassettes back in the day that everyone just fast forwards through. Sure, very little cost to the production companies, doesn't limit thier expression in any way, okay, sold. As for the "educational porn" lol, I have no doubt it exists, but I have never seen an "educational porn" section in an adult store. Probably for a good reason, there isn't a demand for it. Greater emphasis is fine, but from who? Are we to compel the porn industry to emphasize it? I think we would be better served making it a part of sex-ed in schools. #7 is definitely where we march in step on this issue, it is absolutely vital we as a society throw off the stigma of the human form and sex act, and that can only take place by education. I wold go even further than you and make it from age 6 all the way through High School graduation. I would just like to point out though, once again, this is in no way a critique of porn, or advocacy to regulate porn. It only serves to bolster my case that porn isn't the problem, our ignorance as a society is the problem.


(28-10-2015 08:26 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Has you can see, I think there is very little objectional demand in my list. In no way do I demand porn to be banned or even more restricted. I am only intersted in improving the practice of this industry to make healthier and safer for its employees, clients and the society they live in. If I had to choose a single thing in all that list I would chose number 7 has the most important one than 1 and 2.

Well, you do sort of demand some regulations, though they are admittedly minor. Nonetheless, I'm glad to see that you don't want to ban or regulate porn. I wonder if I haven't maybe swayed you a bit on the issue of the harm it does, or the lack thereof. Women have suffered injustices of all types in this country, and indeed around the world throughout all of recorded history, thier place in society has steadily improved throughout that time as well, and I'm confident will continue to do so regardless of whether or not we can watch some folks screw on video, or live, or in a magazine.

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. -Thomas Jefferson

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. -David Hume
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28-10-2015, 04:47 PM
RE: I support Saudi Arabia because of Porn.
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