I take their religion more seriously than [them]
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30-10-2013, 12:08 PM
I take their religion more seriously than [them]
Disclaimer: I put “them” in brackets, because I don’t want it to sound like an “us” vs. “them” thing, or “them” equals all Theist. Rather, whomever is your “them”, you can fit into the brackets yourself. My “them” happens to be a particular “she”, in this particular case. But there are many other “thems” as well. There are plenty of Theist who do not fall in this role so well, and as such, they are not the [thems] I’m referring to…

I have a Theist friend who I speak to almost daily, and who brings up her religion with me, almost daily…or at least used to, less so now. Now a days, she mostly skims over the surface of religion, rather than plunging deeply into it, when she brings it up to me. She used to try to go into these in-depth conversations with me, but I’d always take them seriously and want to go deeper with it. I often feel she would say these throw-away things, about her religious view. That’s not to say I don’t believe she in fact believed them. I think she did. I mean “throw-away” in the sense that they are points to be said, that she thinks are full of meaning and are self evidently true, so there is no reason to go into them. Kind of like saying, “there is no such thing as coincidence, everything happens for a reason”, “God can do anything”, “God gave us free will so that we could chose to love him, how else would he know if we truly loved him unless we had the choice and the option not to.”

The problem is, I would then go into depth about these conversations, as I didn’t simply take them as self evident. She would not be prepared for this, because she never really went much deeper in thought than these surface level statements. I have. I have already considered these ideas since I was a child, and many more, and continued to ponder deeply on them throughout my life. Even beyond the scoop of believing in “God”, I continued to ponder them for the sake of thoughtfulness. I never dismissed concepts, just because I didn’t believe in them. I always looked deeply into all things, to understand other’s beliefs, and to understand myself in relation to those beliefs. What, within their belief system can I take away as positive, useful, or real-world, and what is unnecessary, and are irrelevant tack-ons that can be left aside?

I’ve never taken other peoples beliefs for grated as false, or true. By now, I’ve already examined them deeply, so that by the time someone brings up questions about morality, or the nature of “God”, or what does Jesus mean when he says this…, (they never ask, do you think Jesus actually ever even said this in reality?)…ect… I already have in-depth thoughts about it. Often times, in the case of the [thems] I’m referring to, “they” have not because “they” are find with the surface of it, because they believe it to be true, so why dig deeper if all your going to do is reassure yourself that you are correct. It’s kind of a waste of time.

I personally don’t feel this way. I love science, it’s my personality to love science. One of the things I love the most about it IS the digging into it. When I learn something new, I don’t simply take it for grated that it’s true, I dig into it to discover why, or how. And amazingly (unlike with the bible) the answers are there, and give me more routes to go even deeper, and deeper still. On the surface I could be told a rainbow is cause by sunlight refracting through raindrops like a prism. This happens to be true, and like my friend’s assumption of her biblical knowledge as being “true”, I don’t “need” to know anything more detailed about it to be right, that that is how a rainbow works. But unlike my friend who stops at “knowing” that her biblical knowledge is “right”, I am not content with that and then dig deeper to find out how, and when I do the universe begins to unravel itself, right down to beginnings of the universe itself if you look deep enough, all from looking at a rainbow.

And that’s kind of the point. With religion, I always took it seriously, even as a non-believer. I looked into it deeply…very deeply. It’s that very deep inspection of it that has left me with the reality that I’m not just someone who doesn’t have a belief in it, but am comfortable with the label Atheist. I’ll wear it, it’s fine, because I examined it. But she, and “they”, pull away from examining their own book. Sure, many, such as the apologist, creationist, and so forth, attempt to go deeper (though not enough), but there are so many like my friend who say things like, “I don’t have time to read the bible, I have kids” as an explanation for why they don’t know as much about the bible, or thought as deeply about it’s concepts as I have.

“I don’t have time to read the bible, I have kids”. This is actually what is said to me by my friend. I can’t comprehend this. As a non-believer, as a very young child, I realized, “what if I’m wrong”. I didn’t believe I was, or really thought I could be, but did still ask, what if. How would I know if I was, or was not? So I examined it deeply, as a non-believer, because if true, what else could be more important to know and understand that that? I poured myself into the bible as a child, as a non-believer, thinking with a believers mind of “what if I assume this is true”, because even as a non-believer, I thought what could be more important (if I’m wrong) than this. I took it deadly seriously at that age. And once I came through it, and saw that there is no “God” in that book, or any other specific religion’s offering of their “god” concept, and on through my continued study to this day, when it comes to hearing a “believer” say, “I don’t have time to read the bible, I have kids”, I don’t have time to read the bible, it’s the single most important thing on the earth to know, it controls your fate for all time, but I don’t have time to read it, and I believe it through and through, every word as literal truth, and I’ll make important life and moral decisions based on it, but I don’t have time to read it. That is what they are saying and I don’t understand it…as I, as an Atheist, and having NEVER once believed, still read it and have taken understanding it far more seriously that almost every Theist I’ve ever meet, and I don’t even believe it. I can’t understand these people who believe so strongly, but can’t be bothered to even think about their own “strong” beliefs.

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30-10-2013, 01:26 PM
RE: I take their religion more seriously than [them]
Simple, really. For many, religion offers a degree of moral certainty and a community of support for a shared but non-inclusive paradigm ( i.e. god is not a physical member of that community.) It becomes part of their identity to consider themselves "one of the righteous," and of course we are "of the devil." She attempts to overshadow her moral fault in not reading the Bible by appealing to a broader paradigm, the responsibility of raising children.

In a similar fashion, the OP is an expression of your righteousness, as is my reply. So, what's the problem?

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30-10-2013, 01:50 PM
RE: I take their religion more seriously than [them]
(30-10-2013 01:26 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  In a similar fashion, the OP is an expression of your righteousness, as is my reply. So, what's the problem?

That their conceptions of righteousness are not in agreement.

Obviously. Big Grin

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30-10-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: I take their religion more seriously than [them]
(30-10-2013 12:08 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Disclaimer: I put “them” in brackets, because I don’t want it to sound like an “us” vs. “them” thing, or “them” equals all Theist. Rather, whomever is your “them”, you can fit into the brackets yourself. My “them” happens to be a particular “she”, in this particular case. But there are many other “thems” as well. There are plenty of Theist who do not fall in this role so well, and as such, they are not the [thems] I’m referring to…

I have a Theist friend who I speak to almost daily, and who brings up her religion with me, almost daily…or at least used to, less so now. Now a days, she mostly skims over the surface of religion, rather than plunging deeply into it, when she brings it up to me. She used to try to go into these in-depth conversations with me, but I’d always take them seriously and want to go deeper with it. I often feel she would say these throw-away things, about her religious view. That’s not to say I don’t believe she in fact believed them. I think she did. I mean “throw-away” in the sense that they are points to be said, that she thinks are full of meaning and are self evidently true, so there is no reason to go into them. Kind of like saying, “there is no such thing as coincidence, everything happens for a reason”, “God can do anything”, “God gave us free will so that we could chose to love him, how else would he know if we truly loved him unless we had the choice and the option not to.”

The problem is, I would then go into depth about these conversations, as I didn’t simply take them as self evident. She would not be prepared for this, because she never really went much deeper in thought than these surface level statements. I have. I have already considered these ideas since I was a child, and many more, and continued to ponder deeply on them throughout my life. Even beyond the scoop of believing in “God”, I continued to ponder them for the sake of thoughtfulness. I never dismissed concepts, just because I didn’t believe in them. I always looked deeply into all things, to understand other’s beliefs, and to understand myself in relation to those beliefs. What, within their belief system can I take away as positive, useful, or real-world, and what is unnecessary, and are irrelevant tack-ons that can be left aside?

I’ve never taken other peoples beliefs for grated as false, or true. By now, I’ve already examined them deeply, so that by the time someone brings up questions about morality, or the nature of “God”, or what does Jesus mean when he says this…, (they never ask, do you think Jesus actually ever even said this in reality?)…ect… I already have in-depth thoughts about it. Often times, in the case of the [thems] I’m referring to, “they” have not because “they” are find with the surface of it, because they believe it to be true, so why dig deeper if all your going to do is reassure yourself that you are correct. It’s kind of a waste of time.

I personally don’t feel this way. I love science, it’s my personality to love science. One of the things I love the most about it IS the digging into it. When I learn something new, I don’t simply take it for grated that it’s true, I dig into it to discover why, or how. And amazingly (unlike with the bible) the answers are there, and give me more routes to go even deeper, and deeper still. On the surface I could be told a rainbow is cause by sunlight refracting through raindrops like a prism. This happens to be true, and like my friend’s assumption of her biblical knowledge as being “true”, I don’t “need” to know anything more detailed about it to be right, that that is how a rainbow works. But unlike my friend who stops at “knowing” that her biblical knowledge is “right”, I am not content with that and then dig deeper to find out how, and when I do the universe begins to unravel itself, right down to beginnings of the universe itself if you look deep enough, all from looking at a rainbow.

And that’s kind of the point. With religion, I always took it seriously, even as a non-believer. I looked into it deeply…very deeply. It’s that very deep inspection of it that has left me with the reality that I’m not just someone who doesn’t have a belief in it, but am comfortable with the label Atheist. I’ll wear it, it’s fine, because I examined it. But she, and “they”, pull away from examining their own book. Sure, many, such as the apologist, creationist, and so forth, attempt to go deeper (though not enough), but there are so many like my friend who say things like, “I don’t have time to read the bible, I have kids” as an explanation for why they don’t know as much about the bible, or thought as deeply about it’s concepts as I have.

“I don’t have time to read the bible, I have kids”. This is actually what is said to me by my friend. I can’t comprehend this. As a non-believer, as a very young child, I realized, “what if I’m wrong”. I didn’t believe I was, or really thought I could be, but did still ask, what if. How would I know if I was, or was not? So I examined it deeply, as a non-believer, because if true, what else could be more important to know and understand that that? I poured myself into the bible as a child, as a non-believer, thinking with a believers mind of “what if I assume this is true”, because even as a non-believer, I thought what could be more important (if I’m wrong) than this. I took it deadly seriously at that age. And once I came through it, and saw that there is no “God” in that book, or any other specific religion’s offering of their “god” concept, and on through my continued study to this day, when it comes to hearing a “believer” say, “I don’t have time to read the bible, I have kids”, I don’t have time to read the bible, it’s the single most important thing on the earth to know, it controls your fate for all time, but I don’t have time to read it, and I believe it through and through, every word as literal truth, and I’ll make important life and moral decisions based on it, but I don’t have time to read it. That is what they are saying and I don’t understand it…as I, as an Atheist, and having NEVER once believed, still read it and have taken understanding it far more seriously that almost every Theist I’ve ever meet, and I don’t even believe it. I can’t understand these people who believe so strongly, but can’t be bothered to even think about their own “strong” beliefs.

I don't get "them" either. 80% of Americans identify in some polls as born again. NOT POSSIBLE. When I'm asked by Christians why I visit this forum, I say, "Not any one thing I say goes unchallenged, and I'm learning plenty."
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30-10-2013, 03:22 PM
RE: I take their religion more seriously than [them]
(30-10-2013 01:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I don't get "them" either. 80% of Americans identify in some polls as born again. NOT POSSIBLE. When I'm asked by Christians why I visit this forum, I say, "Not any one thing I say goes unchallenged, and I'm learning plenty."

And that's the thing. I actually enjoy discussing religion. I know alot about it. I don't agree with it, but I can definitely have in depth, thoughtful conversation about aspects of it.

I don't go around trying to strick up conversations with religious people just because they are religous, because they may not want to hear what I think of their beliefs. And if they aren't bothering me with theirs, then we can leave each other alone. But I feel, such as with my friend I speak of in the OP, when one makes a point of discussing it with me, knowing my possition, then that's an invite to the conversation. But I'm always let down, because she hasn't really thought that far into it. She thought she had, but eventually admitted I know more about the bible than her, so we don't have conversations about the content of the bible anymore, because she doesn't know it. She's like most, who just read the familiar parts, but doesn't look into the meat of the thing.

She tried to have more philosophical conversations, about meaning, and purpose, and reality, but their not very good points and when I raise issues or point, that I conceived when I was only seven years old by the way, she has nothing to say because they have never even occured to her. I'm talking about simple ideas like, "when do you take something as literal, and when as metaphore". Initally the reason she gives is, "Because obviously [this] is not ment to be taken literal" but then she can't explain why the literal parts, like the talking snake, or the animals fitting on the arc, are literal, not metaphorical, and how we determine which is which. She admits she doesn't know, because she's never though of those things. I say, "Well consider it now. What do you think"? And she just goes blank and says, "I don't know" or "I don't have time to think about those things". And then I just wonder, why does she even bring it up then, and how can she "believe" something that she's never even truely thought about. I'm not even asking crazy tough questions. These are question that came to me as a seven year old, but she's not able to think that hard on them?

Now a days she simply makes passing comments about Jesus returning and the end of the world (she's fun). Or, as happened yesterday, say things like, "I'm glad my kids don't want to make Jack O'Lanterns this year. I feel their demonic faces (the pumpkins, not the children) invite demons into the house". Then I just make fun of the demons hiding in her yard that can't figure out how to sneak inside a house without a cut up squash being placed by the frount door, that magically lets them inside.

...
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30-10-2013, 03:33 PM
RE: I take their religion more seriously than [them]
Another example is, she talks alot about when "this is all over" and she's in heaven with Jesus. And I'll ask her questions about what heaven is actually like, but I am basing my questions around what it actually says in the bible. Questions about fairness or unfairness about who gets to go, or not go, and why...based again, on what is actually in the bible. Whether or not there is "free will" in heaven, considering nothing not perfect could ever happen there, so does that mean once in heaven one is no longer able to do anything bad, and if they can't than how is that still "free will".

And to all these type of questions, it's just "I don't know, I'll ask God when I get there".

I say that it's good, that she doesn't simply make up things that she doesn't know. That it's better to admit you don't know something that to claim you do. But with things like the last question, "free will" in heaven, what do you think, that's just a logic problem. You could at least think about it, I wont take it as though you are saying you know the answer. And her responce is just, I don't know, I'll ask God when I get there, and if I see you then, I'll let you know.

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30-10-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: I take their religion more seriously than [them]
(30-10-2013 01:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  When I'm asked by Christians why I visit this forum, I say, "Not any one thing I say goes unchallenged, and I'm learning plenty."

I challenge that. Dodgy

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31-10-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: I take their religion more seriously than [them]
(30-10-2013 03:33 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Another example is, she talks alot about when "this is all over" and she's in heaven with Jesus. And I'll ask her questions about what heaven is actually like, but I am basing my questions around what it actually says in the bible. Questions about fairness or unfairness about who gets to go, or not go, and why...based again, on what is actually in the bible. Whether or not there is "free will" in heaven, considering nothing not perfect could ever happen there, so does that mean once in heaven one is no longer able to do anything bad, and if they can't than how is that still "free will".

And to all these type of questions, it's just "I don't know, I'll ask God when I get there".

I say that it's good, that she doesn't simply make up things that she doesn't know. That it's better to admit you don't know something that to claim you do. But with things like the last question, "free will" in heaven, what do you think, that's just a logic problem. You could at least think about it, I wont take it as though you are saying you know the answer. And her responce is just, I don't know, I'll ask God when I get there, and if I see you then, I'll let you know.

The good news is fair in that anyone may enter the Kingdom. Stupid person who can only say "I'll ask after I get there"? Maybe.

But you can be stupid and saved. There's the freethinker's tragedy. Smart? Certainly.
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31-10-2013, 01:25 PM
RE: I take their religion more seriously than [them]
(30-10-2013 03:53 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 01:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  When I'm asked by Christians why I visit this forum, I say, "Not any one thing I say goes unchallenged, and I'm learning plenty."

I challenge that. Dodgy

Like I said, everything. So thanks for proving my assertion!

But seriously, you guys are providing laughter for those I speak with and the atheists do even worse against me in public debates than formerly... Smile
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31-10-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: I take their religion more seriously than [them]
I bet those who claim to have no time to read the bible will have read fairly sizable sections... You know what they say, fastest way to become an atheist is to read the bible.

I think they're afraid of what they'll find... They're not stupid, they know bullshit when they see it, and they've probably seen enough in the bible to have been scared off. Its basic head in the sand thinking...

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