I think therefore I am
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26-02-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: I think therefore I am
(26-02-2014 03:44 PM)Teen-skeptic-go! Wrote:  They react to stimuli in ways that allow them to survive simply because that's the way the species evolved. When they were more primitive, the organisms that didn't preserve themselves died out. If modern animals didn't react that way, they wouldn't be here. That doesn't mean that they "think" in the same way we do.

Well, not entirely, if you look at the way coyotes and wolves hunt, there is a definte thought process that mimics the human thought pattern. I say 'mimics', because we cant not ask them what their thoughts are.

There are of course many other examples, however those two just popped to mind.

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26-02-2014, 03:58 PM
RE: I think therefore I am
(26-02-2014 03:52 PM)War Horse Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 03:44 PM)Teen-skeptic-go! Wrote:  They react to stimuli in ways that allow them to survive simply because that's the way the species evolved. When they were more primitive, the organisms that didn't preserve themselves died out. If modern animals didn't react that way, they wouldn't be here. That doesn't mean that they "think" in the same way we do.

Well, not entirely, if you look at the way coyotes and wolves hunt, there is a definte thought process that mimics the human thought pattern. I say 'mimics', because we cant not ask them what their thoughts are.

There are of course many other examples, however those two just popped to mind.

Even if they "think", that doesn't make them conscious. Their thoughts are just adaptations to help them survive.

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26-02-2014, 04:02 PM
RE: I think therefore I am
(26-02-2014 03:58 PM)Teen-skeptic-go! Wrote:  Even if they "think", that doesn't make them conscious. Their thoughts are just adaptations to help them survive.

Something doesnt seem correct about that statement, but I need to do some other things right now.

Let me think on this a bit so I can better explain, but it'll be tomorrow.

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26-02-2014, 04:46 PM
Re: RE: I think therefore I am
(26-02-2014 11:35 AM)donotwant Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 11:32 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  But what is thinking, and how valid is your conclusion of your own mental processes.

It's not exactly stable if you go beyond the form of what creates the doubt. Of course it's the brain, although, why does doubt require a valid doubter? Can a fictional or false existence not appear to have valid doubts as well?

Regardless, I prefer Dostoevsky's line of, I speak nonsense, therefore I'm human.
If doubt does not require a doubter how can it exist then?
Somebody who doesn't exist can doubt his own existence?
Somebody who doesn't exist can't doubt anything because he doesn't exist.
Or you suggest that doubt can somehow exist on it's own.

How so you define doubt, is or merely a product or a process? That is a factor that has impact.

How do you know I exist and think/doubt? On what basis to you say a fictional character does not doubt? Is that doubt perceived any differently than how you see others doubting?

The problem of the Descartes line not being fully valid is how it defines itself on an abstract point. It breaks down to not trust the sensory input, but to believe the doubt/thought you have is really your own.

It doesn't matter where doubt comes from, but the question of makes your thoughts yours remains.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-02-2014, 05:08 PM
RE: I think therefore I am
(26-02-2014 10:26 AM)donotwant Wrote:  There is a section where people criticize this assumption. But I don't see how it is possible to criticize it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum#Criticisms

I agree with Descartes that doubting my own existence would require a doubter. Because if doubt does exist then a doubter does exist. How can doubt exist without a doubter?
Nietzsche seems to confuse the problem with the problem of other minds. Other minds might not exist but mine does because if my mind would not exist there wouldn't be a mind to do the thinking.

How can a creation exist without a creator? Laugh out load

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26-02-2014, 10:03 PM
RE: I think therefore I am
(26-02-2014 04:46 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 11:35 AM)donotwant Wrote:  If doubt does not require a doubter how can it exist then?
Somebody who doesn't exist can doubt his own existence?
Somebody who doesn't exist can't doubt anything because he doesn't exist.
Or you suggest that doubt can somehow exist on it's own.

How so you define doubt, is or merely a product or a process? That is a factor that has impact.

How do you know I exist and think/doubt? On what basis to you say a fictional character does not doubt? Is that doubt perceived any differently than how you see others doubting?

The problem of the Descartes line not being fully valid is how it defines itself on an abstract point. It breaks down to not trust the sensory input, but to believe the doubt/thought you have is really your own.

It doesn't matter where doubt comes from, but the question of makes your thoughts yours remains.

Does doubt prove doubt exist?
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27-02-2014, 12:00 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
(26-02-2014 03:35 PM)War Horse Wrote:  It seems to me to be somewhat arrogant of humans to use this phrase "I think, therefore I am"

It makes it appear that we are the only ones that 'think'.

To me a better way to look at it is 'I'm conscious, therefore I'm am' , as are most living creatures. If they didnt have consciousness, then why does every animal retreat or attack to preserve itself... to continue to 'be'. We see animals 'thinking' all the time, working out details, even in groups, all the time.

To what degree we 'think' is an illusion of the ego, and more so would be nothing more than consciousness of a species that indeed 'is'.

Just my hypothesis on something I've thought about many times.

It's my understanding that Descartes coined that phrase not out of arrogance, but from a mental exercise. He began with the belief that a human is made of two parts: the body and the mind. First, he closed his eyes and tried to imagine his mind without a body—he succeeded. Then, he tried to imagine himself as a body without a mind. He could not escape his mind, i.e.: thinking.
He concluded, "I think, therefore I am."

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27-02-2014, 05:47 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
There is actually a name for the "form of mental exercise" Descartes used in his mind / body experiment. Does anyone know it. I have forgotten.


As far as "can I doubt that I doubt I'm thinking or can I doubt that I exist" goes, your answers may lie in philosophical psychology.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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27-02-2014, 06:08 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
(26-02-2014 04:02 PM)War Horse Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 03:58 PM)Teen-skeptic-go! Wrote:  Even if they "think", that doesn't make them conscious. Their thoughts are just adaptations to help them survive.

Something doesnt seem correct about that statement, but I need to do some other things right now.

Let me think on this a bit so I can better explain, but it'll be tomorrow.

Wouldnt consciousness also be the same as saying "aware" of self ?

And if thoughts are just adaptations for survival, then it would surely apply to humans too.

I go back to the way coyotes hunt, because I've seen them in action around here, they will have one put himself in the open and very vunerable position, while the rest strategically postion themself (unseen) for the attack. The pack actually breaks up into 'one man' teams, stays out of sight untill the prey has approached the bait dog, and then all at once attack.

Each hunt is different as are the situatitions. This implies 'thought' to work out different scenarios in different conditions.

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27-02-2014, 06:36 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
People do you exist?
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