I think therefore I am
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28-02-2014, 11:58 PM
RE: I think therefore I am
(26-02-2014 10:26 AM)donotwant Wrote:  There is a section where people criticize this assumption. But I don't see how it is possible to criticize it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum#Criticisms

I agree with Descartes that doubting my own existence would require a doubter. Because if doubt does exist then a doubter does exist. How can doubt exist without a doubter?
Nietzsche seems to confuse the problem with the problem of other minds. Other minds might not exist but mine does because if my mind would not exist there wouldn't be a mind to do the thinking.

Both doubt and doubter are "experiences" like the sweet and its sweetness. Existence and non-existence of doubt and doubter is relative and they can even exist and not exist simultaneously.
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01-03-2014, 12:03 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
(28-02-2014 11:58 PM)Menhit Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 10:26 AM)donotwant Wrote:  There is a section where people criticize this assumption. But I don't see how it is possible to criticize it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum#Criticisms

I agree with Descartes that doubting my own existence would require a doubter. Because if doubt does exist then a doubter does exist. How can doubt exist without a doubter?
Nietzsche seems to confuse the problem with the problem of other minds. Other minds might not exist but mine does because if my mind would not exist there wouldn't be a mind to do the thinking.

Both doubt and doubter are "experiences" like the sweet and its sweetness. Existence and non-existence of doubt and doubter is relative and they can even exist and not exist simultaneously.

Menhit if nothing exists how can you read this message?
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01-03-2014, 12:37 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
@donotwant: I have not said nothing exists, I said "existence is relative" i.e. it can both simultaneously exist and not exist.
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01-03-2014, 12:41 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
That's cool now can you read this message of nothing exists?
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01-03-2014, 01:05 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
@donotwant: I can read (experience) this message because of certain part of brain, the existence of this certain part of brain is known to me through perception (experience). Which means things "experienced" exist while that not experienced doesn't exist. And most important concept here is "experience" rather than existence because experience is relative i.e. not same for every point in space and time that makes existence also relative that is not same for different points of time and space.
Now if you ask who is experiencing? Then I would say this "who" is also an experience so, an experience is experiencing and all that is experienced is relative.
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01-03-2014, 01:09 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
So do we both agree that you can't read this message if nothing exists?
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01-03-2014, 01:17 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
@donotwant: If no experience = no existence then yes.
But, does no existence guarantee no experience or vice versa? If not then no.
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01-03-2014, 01:19 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
(01-03-2014 01:17 AM)Menhit Wrote:  @donotwant: If no experience = no existence then yes.
But, does no existence guarantee no experience or vice versa? If not then no.

How can you experience anything if nothing exists?
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01-03-2014, 01:27 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
@donotwant: Take an example of "fear", one can fear a snake on the other side of the door. That snake can be present or not present on the other side of door but, irrespective of its existence or non-existence we experience fear so, an experience can come out of non-existence too.
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01-03-2014, 01:30 AM
RE: I think therefore I am
(01-03-2014 01:27 AM)Menhit Wrote:  @donotwant: Take an example of "fear", one can fear a snake on the other side of the door. That snake can be present or not present on the other side of door but, irrespective of its existence or non-existence we experience fear so, an experience can come out of non-existence too.

If you can see it it exists in one way or another for instance in your imagination. You see this message. Does this message exist?
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