I thought you Atheists might be bored
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29-04-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Thank you all for taking time to read and give your input. I learn a lot when I talk to others. My hope was actually not realized as I thought that as Atheists who were former theists you might have some understanding of biblical things and be able to poke holes in this and show me possible error in thought but instead all I have seen is the usual "Don't believe fairy tales" stuff.

Have a great day,

Gary
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29-04-2012, 11:43 AM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Quote:You bring up valid points which must have logical scriptural support for answers since it is the bible that predicts all things through foreshadowing. If it had not been for Enoch, there may have been no credible evidence for anyone to believe in a rapture of the church. Fair enough question you pose asking me what I have determined to believe that death might be what awaits those who have actually been faithful. I thought I posted it previously but Isaiah 57:1 comes to mind
Isa 57:1 ¶ The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth [it] to heart: and merciful men [are] taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil [to come].




This along with 2 Kings 22:14-20 show me God dealing with Josiah in this manner. Josiah was killed in battle rather than see the upcoming tribulation of Judah. And I am led to believe that those who do die might have a choice in the matter as Josiah obviously did. God sent a messenger to tell Josiah not to go out to battle and Josiah chose to do so anyway and got himself killed. Just as Paul stated that he knew he had an upcoming choice to make. Departing to be with God would be much better but to stay behind would be more beneficial to others. He said he didn't know what he would choose yet but was persuaded that it would probably be to stick around.

These are a couple of things that I base the idea that those who are as the church of Philadelphia were might suffer death before the real dirty business begins.

Gary




Well, I can see why you would use those verses to support your theory, but I do think it's just that...supporting YOUR theory. Proof-texting only works when you've already made up your mind about some event and then you go looking for verses that vaguely support your position without being self-evident in their meaning. I'm not answering or questioning you just as an atheist. When I was a Christian I would have found this idea just as ridiculous as those of Harold Camping. I'm not sure how old you are. Did you grow up during the 70's at all? Have you heard of Hal Lindsay? He wrote Late Great Planet Earth. It was a best-seller in the 1970s and influenced a generation of Evangelicals to believe the Second Coming would happen in the 80's. Apparently, he was wrong. People have been predicting the "end of the Church Age" ever since Paul decided to create a religion. No one has ever been correct so far. That fact alone makes it difficult to believe you are doing anything other than wishful thinking. I don't think any theology should be built on a few randomly scattered verses, no matter how much you believe it's the Holy Spirit giving you this revelation. In Christian thinking, the word of God must be confirmed by the fellowship of Believers, and I don't see anyone confirming your theory (I don't mean here on a forum of atheists, I mean anyone calling themselves Christian).

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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29-04-2012, 12:01 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 09:56 AM)Dom Wrote:  Maybe you will become the new prophet...

Better him than me. Tongue

That nailed it, though; prophetic times makes prophets, not prophecy.

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29-04-2012, 12:01 PM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2012 12:12 PM by Debzilla.)
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 11:14 AM)gdemoss Wrote:  Thank you all for taking time to read and give your input. I learn a lot when I talk to others. My hope was actually not realized as I thought that as Atheists who were former theists you might have some understanding of biblical things and be able to poke holes in this and show me possible error in thought but instead all I have seen is the usual "Don't believe fairy tales" stuff.

Have a great day,

Gary
Gary, perhaps your agenda wasnt realized because what you want are holes in some details and what you got are holes being poked in the very core of your world view.
The core of my understanding of the universe is that until proven otherwise, all religions to date are man made stories. Complex narratives with many agendas. From that stance of the bible as not a prophecy, many would not feel the need to examine/debate any one detail. The truth or fallacy of any one part does not change the core fact that it is myth and story. For me, debunking piece by piece seems interesting but not necessary. I'll leave that type of fun to the expert former theists.
If someone came on and claimed that the Lord of the Rings was prophecy or word of God, I would not spend time trying to discuss the science of how "Precious" had such a hold on Gollum. I wouldnt try to prove the ways in which praying to Frodo or Gandalf the Gray doesnt work. I wouldnt agree that it was word of God just because it has a great message of good over evil. I would stick to the point that Lord of the Rings was/is a great set of books that became a movie trilogy, which I'm sure at the end state the following: "Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."
I would slap that same disclaimer on religion. "Any resemblance to a real prophecy, past, current, or future, is purely coincidental."

I'm sorry that the discussion hasnt touched on that which you were hoping; is it possible it is attacking the part of your perspecitve you ultimately want left alone? Maybe that is where you need to go.
Or maybe not.

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29-04-2012, 12:05 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 11:43 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
Quote:You bring up valid points which must have logical scriptural support for answers since it is the bible that predicts all things through foreshadowing. If it had not been for Enoch, there may have been no credible evidence for anyone to believe in a rapture of the church. Fair enough question you pose asking me what I have determined to believe that death might be what awaits those who have actually been faithful. I thought I posted it previously but Isaiah 57:1 comes to mind
Isa 57:1 ¶ The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth [it] to heart: and merciful men [are] taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil [to come].




This along with 2 Kings 22:14-20 show me God dealing with Josiah in this manner. Josiah was killed in battle rather than see the upcoming tribulation of Judah. And I am led to believe that those who do die might have a choice in the matter as Josiah obviously did. God sent a messenger to tell Josiah not to go out to battle and Josiah chose to do so anyway and got himself killed. Just as Paul stated that he knew he had an upcoming choice to make. Departing to be with God would be much better but to stay behind would be more beneficial to others. He said he didn't know what he would choose yet but was persuaded that it would probably be to stick around.

These are a couple of things that I base the idea that those who are as the church of Philadelphia were might suffer death before the real dirty business begins.

Gary




Well, I can see why you would use those verses to support your theory, but I do think it's just that...supporting YOUR theory. Proof-texting only works when you've already made up your mind about some event and then you go looking for verses that vaguely support your position without being self-evident in their meaning. I'm not answering or questioning you just as an atheist. When I was a Christian I would have found this idea just as ridiculous as those of Harold Camping. I'm not sure how old you are. Did you grow up during the 70's at all? Have you heard of Hal Lindsay? He wrote Late Great Planet Earth. It was a best-seller in the 1970s and influenced a generation of Evangelicals to believe the Second Coming would happen in the 80's. Apparently, he was wrong. People have been predicting the "end of the Church Age" ever since Paul decided to create a religion. No one has ever been correct so far. That fact alone makes it difficult to believe you are doing anything other than wishful thinking. I don't think any theology should be built on a few randomly scattered verses, no matter how much you believe it's the Holy Spirit giving you this revelation. In Christian thinking, the word of God must be confirmed by the fellowship of Believers, and I don't see anyone confirming your theory (I don't mean here on a forum of atheists, I mean anyone calling themselves Christian).
Good response. Well thought out and logical but not dependent upon considering all biblical truth. My position is not secured by a few scattered verses at all. It is based upon many as the whole theme of scripture speaks. Your not considering Noah, Lot, Jesus, Joshua, Moses or any of the likes of individual people who had revelation that wasn't readily believed by the masses or even those who believed in and followed the same God as they. They were each on their own with only the support of God behind them. People like yourself or those at places like Worthy are the same as the scoffers who wouldn't hear those that came to them. We are even told that the end would be like Noah and Lots day and this is what I see all around me. I by no means believe that I am the only one with the truth as Elijah thought he was the only one left but there were 7000. 7000 out of millions so it 'felt' like he was the only one. I believe there are others scattered abroad who know and understand the reality of the truth unfolding before us.

If you are correct and I am just making this all up in my head based upon some crazed notion of biblical proof texting, then I will be outed as soon as the things I have said do not come to pass. At that point I will be open to all of the teachings here at this forum and work to learn to overcome what would have to be mental illness of sorts. But if I am correct then it is quite possible that God is using me to save some of you. I understand your skepticism but still hold on to the hope that it will come to pass as I have seen it.

May God bless you in all you do and give you sight.

Gary
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29-04-2012, 12:15 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
If the US was attacked during this year I'd be happy =p Been waiting for it my whole life as someon living there. Last time it was attacked my response was "finally" which I uttered in a chinese buffet and shortly after was muffled by my mom =p

It's not really prophecy to suggest the US has it coming, there's plenty of enemies who just haven't felt the time was right. And if Israel were to be overthrown that would be a bit of a shock, but in this current financially restricted world I could see all the financial backing from the rest of the world leaving Israel. They don't keep their small bit of land in the middle east on their own. If their allies left they'd be seeking a new home.

Prophecies are more impressive when they discuss things that aren't already expected to happen =p

I will say though that your post was rather well written. Be happy that you have a good command of words.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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29-04-2012, 12:19 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 12:05 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  
(29-04-2012 11:43 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  


Well, I can see why you would use those verses to support your theory, but I do think it's just that...supporting YOUR theory. Proof-texting only works when you've already made up your mind about some event and then you go looking for verses that vaguely support your position without being self-evident in their meaning. I'm not answering or questioning you just as an atheist. When I was a Christian I would have found this idea just as ridiculous as those of Harold Camping. I'm not sure how old you are. Did you grow up during the 70's at all? Have you heard of Hal Lindsay? He wrote Late Great Planet Earth. It was a best-seller in the 1970s and influenced a generation of Evangelicals to believe the Second Coming would happen in the 80's. Apparently, he was wrong. People have been predicting the "end of the Church Age" ever since Paul decided to create a religion. No one has ever been correct so far. That fact alone makes it difficult to believe you are doing anything other than wishful thinking. I don't think any theology should be built on a few randomly scattered verses, no matter how much you believe it's the Holy Spirit giving you this revelation. In Christian thinking, the word of God must be confirmed by the fellowship of Believers, and I don't see anyone confirming your theory (I don't mean here on a forum of atheists, I mean anyone calling themselves Christian).

Good response. Well thought out and logical but not dependent upon considering all biblical truth. My position is not secured by a few scattered verses at all. It is based upon many as the whole theme of scripture speaks. Your not considering Noah, Lot, Jesus, Joshua, Moses or any of the likes of individual people who had revelation that wasn't readily believed by the masses or even those who believed in and followed the same God as they. They were each on their own with only the support of God behind them. People like yourself or those at places like Worthy are the same as the scoffers who wouldn't hear those that came to them. We are even told that the end would be like Noah and Lots day and this is what I see all around me. I by no means believe that I am the only one with the truth as Elijah thought he was the only one left but there were 7000. 7000 out of millions so it 'felt' like he was the only one. I believe there are others scattered abroad who know and understand the reality of the truth unfolding before us.

If you are correct and I am just making this all up in my head based upon some crazed notion of biblical proof texting, then I will be outed as soon as the things I have said do not come to pass. At that point I will be open to all of the teachings here at this forum and work to learn to overcome what would have to be mental illness of sorts. But if I am correct then it is quite possible that God is using me to save some of you. I understand your skepticism but still hold on to the hope that it will come to pass as I have seen it.

May God bless you in all you do and give you sight.

Gary


I did say I saw the logic in your thought. That is direct feedback. I just don't accept the foundation, and you've got to expect that here. I suppose you are waiting for someone to say your logic is flawed, and you may still get that here. It's the weekend, and while no one is at church, people still spend their days off with family or recreational activities.

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29-04-2012, 12:21 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 12:05 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  Good response. Well thought out and logical but not dependent upon considering all biblical truth. My position is not secured by a few scattered verses at all. It is based upon many as the whole theme of scripture speaks. Your not considering Noah, Lot, Jesus, Joshua, Moses or any of the likes of individual people who had revelation that wasn't readily believed by the masses or even those who believed in and followed the same God as they. They were each on their own with only the support of God behind them. People like yourself or those at places like Worthy are the same as the scoffers who wouldn't hear those that came to them. We are even told that the end would be like Noah and Lots day and this is what I see all around me. I by no means believe that I am the only one with the truth as Elijah thought he was the only one left but there were 7000. 7000 out of millions so it 'felt' like he was the only one. I believe there are others scattered abroad who know and understand the reality of the truth unfolding before us.

If you are correct and I am just making this all up in my head based upon some crazed notion of biblical proof texting, then I will be outed as soon as the things I have said do not come to pass. At that point I will be open to all of the teachings here at this forum and work to learn to overcome what would have to be mental illness of sorts. But if I am correct then it is quite possible that God is using me to save some of you. I understand your skepticism but still hold on to the hope that it will come to pass as I have seen it.

May God bless you in all you do and give you sight.

Gary
Fair enough in bringing up Elijah. Still, in the narrative, his message was backed up with supernatural miracles. I haven't hung out with you, but I'd be surprised to learn you can call down fire from heaven. Smile

But, that aside, Pastor Erxomai would have been more concerned about your last paragraph than he would be about your move toward being a false prophet. You highlight the danger in Christianity in placing so much faith and energy in spurious claims about things that are outside of Orthodoxy. You're essentially saying that this time next year, if your prediction is wrong, you'll consider becoming a Skeptic. Why pin your faith to something so difficult to prove when the result of it not coming true is the loss of your entire faith? That makes me suspect you're already filled with doubts about the veracity of the Bible. Isn't it better to stay away from making such predictions as it seems so unlikely. But even if I'm way off base, I do appreciate that even in your certainty, you still leave the door open to admit you might be wrong. In this respect, you are heads and shoulders above someone like Camping who was pretty arrogant in his predictions...

all 3 times. Tongue

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29-04-2012, 12:33 PM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2012 12:55 PM by gdemoss.)
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 12:01 PM)Debzilla Wrote:  
(29-04-2012 11:14 AM)gdemoss Wrote:  Thank you all for taking time to read and give your input. I learn a lot when I talk to others. My hope was actually not realized as I thought that as Atheists who were former theists you might have some understanding of biblical things and be able to poke holes in this and show me possible error in thought but instead all I have seen is the usual "Don't believe fairy tales" stuff.

Have a great day,

Gary
Gary, perhaps your agenda wasnt realized because what you want are holes in some details and what you got are holes being poked in the very core of your world view.
The core of my understanding of the universe is that until proven otherwise, all religions to date are man made stories. Complex narratives with many agendas. From that stanceof the bible as not a prophecy, many would not feel the need to examine/debate any one detail. The truth or fallacy of any one part does not change the core fact that it is myth and story. For me, debunking piece by piece seems interesting but not necessary. I'll leave that type of fun to the expert former theists.
If someone came on and claimed that the Lord of the Rings was prophecy or word of God, I would not spend time trying to discuss the science of how "Precious" had such a hold on Gollum. I wouldnt try to prove the ways in which praying to Frodo or Gandalf the Gray doesnt work. I wouldnt agree that it was word of God just because it has a great message of good over evil. I would stick to the point that Lord of the Rings was/is a great set of books that became a movie trilogy, which I'm sure at the end state the following: "Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."
I would slap that same disclaimer on religion. "Any resemblance to a real prophecy, past, current, or future, is purely coincidental."

I'm sorry that the discussion hasnt touched on that which you were hoping; is it possible it is attacking the part of your perspecitve you ultimately want left alone? Maybe that is where you need to go.
Or maybe not.
Thank you so much Debzilla as I can see that you are genuine in your thoughts and position. That gives me more respect for you than most Christians I meet. It doesn't bother me that there is an attack made upon my worldview as that is to be expected. You are being more biblically correct in nature by doing just that. Jesus said why behold the mote in your brothers eye when you cannot see the beam in your own. You see, you understand explicitly what stands between me and becoming atheist. You would naturally and logically go directly to the root of the issue. The ax must be laid to the root of the tree and the rest of the tree falls with it. I can respect that. I can't respect your beliefs nor you mine but I can respect the integrity in which you approach your position.

Maybe one of the former theists will come along and decide to try and trim a few branches.

Gary


(29-04-2012 12:15 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  If the US was attacked during this year I'd be happy =p Been waiting for it my whole life as someon living there. Last time it was attacked my response was "finally" which I uttered in a chinese buffet and shortly after was muffled by my mom =p

It's not really prophecy to suggest the US has it coming, there's plenty of enemies who just haven't felt the time was right. And if Israel were to be overthrown that would be a bit of a shock, but in this current financially restricted world I could see all the financial backing from the rest of the world leaving Israel. They don't keep their small bit of land in the middle east on their own. If their allies left they'd be seeking a new home.

Prophecies are more impressive when they discuss things that aren't already expected to happen =p

I will say though that your post was rather well written. Be happy that you have a good command of words.
Thanks for the comments. I get your point about America and agree that even from an atheistic view of the World one could conclude that it is about time someone attack.

Gary
(29-04-2012 12:19 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(29-04-2012 12:05 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  Good response. Well thought out and logical but not dependent upon considering all biblical truth. My position is not secured by a few scattered verses at all. It is based upon many as the whole theme of scripture speaks. Your not considering Noah, Lot, Jesus, Joshua, Moses or any of the likes of individual people who had revelation that wasn't readily believed by the masses or even those who believed in and followed the same God as they. They were each on their own with only the support of God behind them. People like yourself or those at places like Worthy are the same as the scoffers who wouldn't hear those that came to them. We are even told that the end would be like Noah and Lots day and this is what I see all around me. I by no means believe that I am the only one with the truth as Elijah thought he was the only one left but there were 7000. 7000 out of millions so it 'felt' like he was the only one. I believe there are others scattered abroad who know and understand the reality of the truth unfolding before us.

If you are correct and I am just making this all up in my head based upon some crazed notion of biblical proof texting, then I will be outed as soon as the things I have said do not come to pass. At that point I will be open to all of the teachings here at this forum and work to learn to overcome what would have to be mental illness of sorts. But if I am correct then it is quite possible that God is using me to save some of you. I understand your skepticism but still hold on to the hope that it will come to pass as I have seen it.

May God bless you in all you do and give you sight.

Gary


I did say I saw the logic in your thought. That is direct feedback. I just don't accept the foundation, and you've got to expect that here. I suppose you are waiting for someone to say your logic is flawed, and you may still get that here. It's the weekend, and while no one is at church, people still spend their days off with family or recreational activities.
I'm sorry if I forgot to thank you for your feedback. Dom, I know that you reject the foundation and that there will be a lot of that here. Thank you for your input though.

Gary


(29-04-2012 12:21 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(29-04-2012 12:05 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  Good response. Well thought out and logical but not dependent upon considering all biblical truth. My position is not secured by a few scattered verses at all. It is based upon many as the whole theme of scripture speaks. Your not considering Noah, Lot, Jesus, Joshua, Moses or any of the likes of individual people who had revelation that wasn't readily believed by the masses or even those who believed in and followed the same God as they. They were each on their own with only the support of God behind them. People like yourself or those at places like Worthy are the same as the scoffers who wouldn't hear those that came to them. We are even told that the end would be like Noah and Lots day and this is what I see all around me. I by no means believe that I am the only one with the truth as Elijah thought he was the only one left but there were 7000. 7000 out of millions so it 'felt' like he was the only one. I believe there are others scattered abroad who know and understand the reality of the truth unfolding before us.

If you are correct and I am just making this all up in my head based upon some crazed notion of biblical proof texting, then I will be outed as soon as the things I have said do not come to pass. At that point I will be open to all of the teachings here at this forum and work to learn to overcome what would have to be mental illness of sorts. But if I am correct then it is quite possible that God is using me to save some of you. I understand your skepticism but still hold on to the hope that it will come to pass as I have seen it.

May God bless you in all you do and give you sight.

Gary
Fair enough in bringing up Elijah. Still, in the narrative, his message was backed up with supernatural miracles. I haven't hung out with you, but I'd be surprised to learn you can call down fire from heaven. Smile

But, that aside, Pastor Erxomai would have been more concerned about your last paragraph than he would be about your move toward being a false prophet. You highlight the danger in Christianity in placing so much faith and energy in spurious claims about things that are outside of Orthodoxy. You're essentially saying that this time next year, if your prediction is wrong, you'll consider becoming a Skeptic. Why pin your faith to something so difficult to prove when the result of it not coming true is the loss of your entire faith? That makes me suspect you're already filled with doubts about the veracity of the Bible. Isn't it better to stay away from making such predictions as it seems so unlikely. But even if I'm way off base, I do appreciate that even in your certainty, you still leave the door open to admit you might be wrong. In this respect, you are heads and shoulders above someone like Camping who was pretty arrogant in his predictions...

all 3 times. Tongue
Considering that you are an ex pastor who has turned atheist, I take great comfort in your concerns. As a pastor turned atheist, you would have come from a heretical church background in order to have fallen away and the former positions you held would be in line with those held by the apostate church and not that of the true.

Calling fire down from heaven isn't part of this time but is going to start again with the two witnesses, who should shortly follow after my predictions come to fruition. I am learning about the 'power' of the age to come spoken of in Hebrews that can be known by us who follow Christ. I am beginning to understand the power of words in Gods economy. I have found that everything that has a physical element in this world also has a spiritual counterpart to it. Calling down fire from heaven is equivalent to bringing down judgment upon those around you from the throne of God. While I haven't been called to do that I have been working to better understand it. If God is who God says he is then I can expect him to act in accordance with his person. So that is what I do. I don't call judgment down upon people but rather a blessing that leads to their understanding of the truth. I don't want to destroy men's lives but to build them up. I am not interested in seeing justice happen as much as I am interested in seeing others learn how to live withing the confines of the all consuming fire that is God without getting burnt.

The bible is a spiritual book that has been carnally understood by those who are being destroyed by their lack of knowledge that comes from disobedience to the basic understanding of biblical morality. Our modern churches are blinded by their own carnality. They focus their energy understanding things like baptism and the Lords supper in a manner consistent with the physical elements and miss out on the spiritual understanding given by Paul that is right in front of them. God has blinded them to the truth because of their disobedience. It is the same thing that happened to Israel but nobody is seeing it coming because they are just as Israel was. The fullness of the gentiles is come in.

Gary
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29-04-2012, 01:42 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Well, unlike erx I have not believed since I was 10 years old. Back then my understanding of religion may have been simplistic, but the view I formed then nerver changed since then. Refined, but the basics remain.

Everytime I talk to a theist, the same things jump out at me. Let's assume there is a god. (I leave room for that possibility.)

You just said:



Quote: God has blinded them to the truth because of their disobedience.


God doesn't seem like a very nice person. He seems to just enjoy conducting experiments with his creation, and instead of removing unsuccessful models, he likes to make them suffer. Starting with his apple experiment. He could have easily removed Adam and Eve painlessly and created a better version if he didn't like what they did. Apparently he didn't want them to procreate when he created them, but then he sent them out to do just that. Of course the flawed creations, who now on top of it all carry the "eternal sin" even though they haven't done anything wrong yet, continue to be flawed.

So he punishes them with floods and wars and killing their first born children and causing the animals to be diseased and what not all horrendous suffering. On and on it goes for thousands of years of natural disasters and disease and crime. And after all that he'll destroy everyone but a chosen few. Meanwhile millions of people die and don't qualify for anything but hell, and even worse fate than earth can produce.

And to top it off he will one day destroy or fry to a crisp all of humanity that's left, saving himself a few he likes.

That's pretty nasty, don't you think? From someone who could just as easily create a joyful world in the first place, one that would be to his liking?

So, if THIS specific god is real ( and that's even more unlikely than that there is a god) I wouldn't at all be surprised if he'd pop a nuclear bomb on people. It's perfectly in character.

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