I thought you Atheists might be bored
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29-04-2012, 01:47 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Why would erxomai coming out of a church make that church heretical? Does that mean each cathedral where a priest wasremoved for molestation charges is a house of sin? I'm not understanding how you can blame those around him for his own decisions. I'm perfectly certain plenty of the people he interacted with as a preacher are still very much christian. Why play down his entire previous community when they are supposedly on your side?

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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29-04-2012, 02:03 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Quote: As a pastor turned atheist, you would have come from a heretical church
background in order to have fallen away and the former positions you
held would be in line with those held by the apostate church and not
that of the true.
Interesting assumption. Not sure how you arrived at your conclusion. Why would me leaving it mean it's an apostate church? Seems like a non sequitur, but since I find all of religion to be a by-product of evolution, I won't argue the point.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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29-04-2012, 04:47 PM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2012 04:54 PM by gdemoss.)
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 01:42 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, unlike erx I have not believed since I was 10 years old. Back then my understanding of religion may have been simplistic, but the view I formed then nerver changed since then. Refined, but the basics remain.

Everytime I talk to a theist, the same things jump out at me. Let's assume there is a god. (I leave room for that possibility.)

You just said:



Quote: God has blinded them to the truth because of their disobedience.


God doesn't seem like a very nice person. He seems to just enjoy conducting experiments with his creation, and instead of removing unsuccessful models, he likes to make them suffer.

Dom, this is your perception of him based upon your vantage point within the creation. Have you ever asked him to explain any of this to you? Have you asked him why he didn't use your methods to achieve a perfect creation? I am not being sarcastic so please don't hear my words that way, but I seek to be earnest. I have asked him those things because they are valid questions.

Quote:Starting with his apple experiment. He could have easily removed Adam and Eve painlessly and created a better version if he didn't like what they did. Apparently he didn't want them to procreate when he created them, but then he sent them out to do just that. Of course the flawed creations, who now on top of it all carry the "eternal sin" even though they haven't done anything wrong yet, continue to be flawed.

Apple experiment. I understand what your saying but by no means was it an experiment. God deliberately created things in such a way that man would fall. If God is omniscient there can be no other explanation. He is completely responsible for setting things in place as they were. There was no removing them and creating new versions as they did exactly as he knew they would. Doing so guaranteed that Jesus would end up Lord of all creation. I understand that you may read this and judge God as immoral based upon how you perceive such actions to be evil. I decided to continue to ask 'why did it have to be this way?' until I began to see and understand the reasoning behind creating something that would bring such immense suffering upon the creation itself in the process of perfecting it. The greatest suffering of all being experienced by the creator who was rejected by his creation. God is vindicated in Christ as he made a way for all.

Quote:So he punishes them with floods and wars and killing their first born children and causing the animals to be diseased and what not all horrendous suffering. On and on it goes for thousands of years of natural disasters and disease and crime. And after all that he'll destroy everyone but a chosen few. Meanwhile millions of people die and don't qualify for anything but hell, and even worse fate than earth can produce.

God is responsible for his part in it all but humans are equally responsible for their part. Most people get caught up in thinking laterally about mankind, but to a certain extent mankind is judged as a whole. One who has not personally participated in an action suffers for the choice of another because mankind as a unit is one. At the same time there is a base level of judgment for the individual as well. The judging of the creation is a complex thing as can be seen in our own government systems. Imagine judging on a universal spiritual level where not only man is being judged but angels as well. It can be really easy to look around at our world and condemn God for not governing it as we think he ought, without taking into consideration everything that he must decide at any given moment in time to be righteous, just and perfect in his dealings with us. If all mankind were to turn to God then there would be perfect peace.

Quote:And to top it off he will one day destroy or fry to a crisp all of humanity that's left, saving himself a few he likes.

This isn't exactly how it ends but I get your point. It wouldn't have to be that way if man had not chose Satan as his god rather than God. God is responsible for his choices but man is responsible for his own as well.

Quote:That's pretty nasty, don't you think? From someone who could just as easily create a joyful world in the first place, one that would be to his liking?

The assumption that he could have created a joyful world in the first place that would be to his liking using different means to achieve the end is pretty presumptuous don't you think? Maybe there was no other way.

Quote:So, if THIS specific god is real ( and that's even more unlikely than that there is a god) I wouldn't at all be surprised if he'd pop a nuclear bomb on people. It's perfectly in character.

It is within Gods character to righteously judge man and he will. You don't agree with his judgment or his methods as you see them and I understand that. I just think that you are missing certain elements of knowledge and understanding that are necessary to see God in the proper light so you judge him by what you do know. Unfortunately that won't work out to well in the end. What do you do when you come before him and are given your time to justify yourself and he asks "Why didn't you just ask me?".

Gary












(29-04-2012 01:47 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Why would erxomai coming out of a church make that church heretical? Does that mean each cathedral where a priest wasremoved for molestation charges is a house of sin? I'm not understanding how you can blame those around him for his own decisions. I'm perfectly certain plenty of the people he interacted with as a preacher are still very much christian. Why play down his entire previous community when they are supposedly on your side?
True. I was basing my conclusion on the fact that most of our current churches are led by pastor/staff that is chosen by the laity and therefore an reflection of the body of believers itself. If an apostate like he were the chosen leader, what can it say about the congregation. I do see where it can't be thought of as an absolute by any means and is for what it is a generalization and may not reflect the entire truth of the situation.

Gary


(29-04-2012 02:03 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
Quote: As a pastor turned atheist, you would have come from a heretical church
background in order to have fallen away and the former positions you
held would be in line with those held by the apostate church and not
that of the true.
Interesting assumption. Not sure how you arrived at your conclusion. Why would me leaving it mean it's an apostate church? Seems like a non sequitur, but since I find all of religion to be a by-product of evolution, I won't argue the point.
As I state in a previous post to this, I was 'assuming' that the laity were responsible for choosing their teacher and thus the teacher would be a good representation of who the body were so it would stand to reason that if the body chose a soon to be apostate then why would they not be close behind? I understand that it isn't an absolute and other factors are probably necessary to come to a more accurate conclusion though.

Gary
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29-04-2012, 05:16 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 04:47 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  As I state in a previous post to this, I was 'assuming' that the laity were responsible for choosing their teacher and thus the teacher would be a good representation of who the body were so it would stand to reason that if the body chose a soon to be apostate then why would they not be close behind? I understand that it isn't an absolute and other factors are probably necessary to come to a more accurate conclusion though.

Gary
No, my calling to ministry came solely from God. It was His will to do so, not mine.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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29-04-2012, 05:36 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Can you believe you just said that Erx? You've just contradicted yourself by admitting who you used to be =p Good thing most of us know that it's about now and then. Too bad a lot of people have such a strong view that your current self must have been who you always were.

I can see Gary taking that as an admittance that god exists even though you were simply talking about a time when god was real for you.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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29-04-2012, 05:41 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 12:15 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  If the US was attacked during this year I'd be happy =p Been waiting for it my whole life as someon living there. Last time it was attacked my response was "finally" which I uttered in a chinese buffet and shortly after was muffled by my mom =p

It's not really prophecy to suggest the US has it coming, there's plenty of enemies who just haven't felt the time was right. And if Israel were to be overthrown that would be a bit of a shock, but in this current financially restricted world I could see all the financial backing from the rest of the world leaving Israel. They don't keep their small bit of land in the middle east on their own. If their allies left they'd be seeking a new home.

Prophecies are more impressive when they discuss things that aren't already expected to happen =p

I will say though that your post was rather well written. Be happy that you have a good command of words.


Re "if the US was attacked during this year I'd be happy"

Um....huh? Have I understood you correctly? Please explain!
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29-04-2012, 06:19 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 04:47 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  Have you asked him why he didn't use your methods to achieve a perfect creation? I am not being sarcastic so please don't hear my words that way, but I seek to be earnest. I have asked him those things because they are valid questions.


Oh, but I did ask him. That and why innocent babies who had not been baptized yet had to go to limbo (I was catholic) and all kinds of questions. I also asked mother Mary a ton of things. For years. Never got an answer.

Then I got too old to be talking to imaginary friends and moved on.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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29-04-2012, 06:21 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 05:41 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(29-04-2012 12:15 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  If the US was attacked during this year I'd be happy =p Been waiting for it my whole life as someon living there. Last time it was attacked my response was "finally" which I uttered in a chinese buffet and shortly after was muffled by my mom =p

It's not really prophecy to suggest the US has it coming, there's plenty of enemies who just haven't felt the time was right. And if Israel were to be overthrown that would be a bit of a shock, but in this current financially restricted world I could see all the financial backing from the rest of the world leaving Israel. They don't keep their small bit of land in the middle east on their own. If their allies left they'd be seeking a new home.

Prophecies are more impressive when they discuss things that aren't already expected to happen =p

I will say though that your post was rather well written. Be happy that you have a good command of words.


Re "if the US was attacked during this year I'd be happy"

Um....huh? Have I understood you correctly? Please explain!
Shhhhhh...she's part of a Soviet Sleep cell, deep undercover.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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29-04-2012, 06:39 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Why would I be happy if they got attacked? Well, first off I would be fine if I happened to be in the area that was attacked, I don't deny the fact that I'm discussing where I generally live. I just really hate the political monster that is the US. I would really like them to have something serious to worry about rather than butting into the rest of the worlds troubles and generally making it worse.

I am quite appaled at how huge of a change international travel has undertaken due to a few planes flying into awkwardly tall buildings by the way. You know how common this sort of thing is all over the world except for the generally lucky to be feared US? Places are bombed constantly all over the world and people practically ignore it. US gets hit and the entire international society must be safeguarded and protected.

I want the US to grow up, and seriously it needs to take a few hits like the rest of the world already has. It has a serious superhero complex and it just needs to grow out of it and understand more that the world doesn't always need it. Maybe even teach it the importance of self preservation since it's one of the most unhealthy countries in a large number of ways.

I don't really like war, but I do feel in a world where war is common the bullies should get their just desserts.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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29-04-2012, 07:45 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 06:39 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Why would I be happy if they got attacked? Well, first off I would be fine if I happened to be in the area that was attacked, I don't deny the fact that I'm discussing where I generally live. I just really hate the political monster that is the US. I would really like them to have something serious to worry about rather than butting into the rest of the worlds troubles and generally making it worse.

I am quite appaled at how huge of a change international travel has undertaken due to a few planes flying into awkwardly tall buildings by the way. You know how common this sort of thing is all over the world except for the generally lucky to be feared US? Places are bombed constantly all over the world and people practically ignore it. US gets hit and the entire international society must be safeguarded and protected.

I want the US to grow up, and seriously it needs to take a few hits like the rest of the world already has. It has a serious superhero complex and it just needs to grow out of it and understand more that the world doesn't always need it. Maybe even teach it the importance of self preservation since it's one of the most unhealthy countries in a large number of ways.

I don't really like war, but I do feel in a world where war is common the bullies should get their just desserts.


Ok...I agree with you about the USA. Going to war is a slightly drastic solution to the problem of arrogance though, don't you think? Lots of innocent people get killed.
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