I thought you Atheists might be bored
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29-04-2012, 07:52 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 06:19 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(29-04-2012 04:47 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  Have you asked him why he didn't use your methods to achieve a perfect creation? I am not being sarcastic so please don't hear my words that way, but I seek to be earnest. I have asked him those things because they are valid questions.


Oh, but I did ask him. That and why innocent babies who had not been baptized yet had to go to limbo (I was catholic) and all kinds of questions. I also asked mother Mary a ton of things. For years. Never got an answer.

Then I got too old to be talking to imaginary friends and moved on.
I am uncertain of how Catholics are taught to relate to God when it comes to asking and receiving answers. I wasn't raised anything and never taught how to ask or how the answers would come. Through what you would call much 'coincidence' I arrived at the conclusion that I needed to ask that which I cannot see whatever questions that I have and then patiently wait for the answer to be revealed to me in some form. Ultimately using this 'mystical' approach I was led to repeatedly reading the bible to get to know the God who claims to have written it through man. I believe most atheists hold to the position that it is just 'me' molding my life around 'imaginary ideals' that have been borrowed from previous creative minds. In the end, I have been given satisfactory answers to my questions of 'why' these things happen or were ordered to be done etc.

The discussion surrounding any logical conclusion to answer these questions must begin with presuppositions in my estimation or I cannot have any basis to form them. God must be who he claims that he is without exception in all things. The God of the bible has made some extraordinary claims about himself that have to be part of the equation that brings me to the truth of righteous judgment or it is all just bogus. As you have observed in the Old Testament, many things have been said and done that must gel with the ideal image that a God who possesses all knowledge, understanding, wisdom and power is a God of love. There can be no double standard. To embark on such a journey into understanding the 'why' of it all, one must be open to understanding both sides. A world that exists material only as well as the possibility that there is an immaterial counterpart that interacts with the material in known ways.

Either God exists or he does not. Either spiritual realm exists or it does not. I watched a video on the burden of proof in another thread and absolutely loved it. The absolute truth is if God exists then the burden of proof is on him and not us to prove his existence. I came to the conclusion that if there was a God then it would be his responsibility to lead me and not mine to figure out how to be led properly. My experience, which is easily discredited by carnal logical thinkers who give no credence to the spiritual realm, brought me to the understanding that God does exist and is in fact the God of the bible. Critical thinkers have come up with all kinds of interesting and logical ways to give reasonable doubt to everything that I experience but such reasonable doubt is always rooted in the logic which concedes that there is no God and therefore we must have a material answer for everything. Of course you can do that! It is absolutely irrefutable logic that is based solely in the material aspect of observable understanding. It's like turning on the radio in my car and knowing it works and being able to take it apart to its smallest parts and define the physical way every part comes together as a whole to bring life to the sounds I hear. I can do that. But if there is in fact an unobservant immaterial aspect that allows radio waves to travel or electricity to be, it gets discounted since we cannot observe it. Just because children can't see the puppet master doesn't mean the puppet master isn't there. There understanding is only lacking. The same with magicians. The understanding is lacking. Atheism is merely that which refuses to accept that which cannot be observed. I get that.

I have no real recourse of action to bring an atheist to faith outside of the chance encounter that I have really been given understanding about this prophetic message that I believe is true. But with one such as yourself, I am not only faced with the burden of proof for spiritual existence but I am also up against the accusation that God is immoral as well. I remember that you revealed unto me that if the God of the bible were actually real, you would not serve him. 'Oy vey'! So I find myself in a precarious position. I can only turn to God to show me what to do next. But that is what I am supposed to do.

Thanks for being so open with me in your post,

Gary
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29-04-2012, 08:46 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Oh, I'll be the first to say that humans are limited in their perception and hence their knowledge. We can only recognize what we can perceive with our senses or reason with our brain.

So, as I usually say it, we really don't know shit.

But that doesn't mean that we have to have some god filling in all our gaps of knowledge. Do some research on what people used to think about lightning, and believed so fervently that using a lightning rod was blasphemy.

That is a perfect example of using god to fill in the gaps of knowledge.

We've come a long way since then, and the churches grudgingly and slowly accept some of the things that have become known to us.

But the nature of belief is that it is resistant to change, otherwise it would not be belief.

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29-04-2012, 09:04 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 07:52 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  
(29-04-2012 06:19 PM)Dom Wrote:  Oh, but I did ask him. That and why innocent babies who had not been baptized yet had to go to limbo (I was catholic) and all kinds of questions. I also asked mother Mary a ton of things. For years. Never got an answer.

Then I got too old to be talking to imaginary friends and moved on.
I am uncertain of how Catholics are taught to relate to God when it comes to asking and receiving answers. I wasn't raised anything and never taught how to ask or how the answers would come. Through what you would call much 'coincidence' I arrived at the conclusion that I needed to ask that which I cannot see whatever questions that I have and then patiently wait for the answer to be revealed to me in some form. Ultimately using this 'mystical' approach I was led to repeatedly reading the bible to get to know the God who claims to have written it through man. I believe most atheists hold to the position that it is just 'me' molding my life around 'imaginary ideals' that have been borrowed from previous creative minds. In the end, I have been given satisfactory answers to my questions of 'why' these things happen or were ordered to be done etc.

The discussion surrounding any logical conclusion to answer these questions must begin with presuppositions in my estimation or I cannot have any basis to form them. God must be who he claims that he is without exception in all things. The God of the bible has made some extraordinary claims about himself that have to be part of the equation that brings me to the truth of righteous judgment or it is all just bogus. As you have observed in the Old Testament, many things have been said and done that must gel with the ideal image that a God who possesses all knowledge, understanding, wisdom and power is a God of love. There can be no double standard. To embark on such a journey into understanding the 'why' of it all, one must be open to understanding both sides. A world that exists material only as well as the possibility that there is an immaterial counterpart that interacts with the material in known ways.

Either God exists or he does not. Either spiritual realm exists or it does not. I watched a video on the burden of proof in another thread and absolutely loved it. The absolute truth is if God exists then the burden of proof is on him and not us to prove his existence. I came to the conclusion that if there was a God then it would be his responsibility to lead me and not mine to figure out how to be led properly. My experience, which is easily discredited by carnal logical thinkers who give no credence to the spiritual realm, brought me to the understanding that God does exist and is in fact the God of the bible. Critical thinkers have come up with all kinds of interesting and logical ways to give reasonable doubt to everything that I experience but such reasonable doubt is always rooted in the logic which concedes that there is no God and therefore we must have a material answer for everything. Of course you can do that! It is absolutely irrefutable logic that is based solely in the material aspect of observable understanding. It's like turning on the radio in my car and knowing it works and being able to take it apart to its smallest parts and define the physical way every part comes together as a whole to bring life to the sounds I hear. I can do that. But if there is in fact an unobservant immaterial aspect that allows radio waves to travel or electricity to be, it gets discounted since we cannot observe it. Just because children can't see the puppet master doesn't mean the puppet master isn't there. There understanding is only lacking. The same with magicians. The understanding is lacking. Atheism is merely that which refuses to accept that which cannot be observed. I get that.

I have no real recourse of action to bring an atheist to faith outside of the chance encounter that I have really been given understanding about this prophetic message that I believe is true. But with one such as yourself, I am not only faced with the burden of proof for spiritual existence but I am also up against the accusation that God is immoral as well. I remember that you revealed unto me that if the God of the bible were actually real, you would not serve him. 'Oy vey'! So I find myself in a precarious position. I can only turn to God to show me what to do next. But that is what I am supposed to do.

Thanks for being so open with me in your post,

Gary
Hey Gary. Look at the bright side. Once this prophecy doesn't come true you can get on with pursuing a skeptical approach to living. In about a year or so, you'll probably be back here thanking the forum for helping guide you out your current religious doctrine and into a much more fulfilling life that you'll know isn't just a practice run for eternity. You will then, therefore, live to life to the fullest day in and day out, because you'll know that is truly is the only life.

And when that day comes, we'll welcome you with open arms.

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29-04-2012, 09:17 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Well gary that was.....special.....I'm sure the other folks at shady acres asylum loved it.
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29-04-2012, 09:29 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Wow. 74 posts for this line of BS from Rev. Gary.
LOL.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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29-04-2012, 09:54 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
Well, if the entire world followed what Jesus taught, I suppose the world will be a better place

I have a question, what if the whole world adhered to the teachings of Buddha? In my opinion, it will too make the world a better place. Or other moral philosophers, why not them? Why Jesus? Or better, follow ALL of them.

If everyone is to be in peace with each other, and we do good for the sake of doing good, the world will be a better place indeed. However, Jesus is not the first and only person who brought up this concept. There are many others, some later than Jesus, some earlier than him. All of them promote the same thing...

LIVE TOGETHER IN HARMONY AND STOP BICKERING OVER THE MOST TRIVIAL THINGS.

Also...
Quote:Either God exists or he does not. Either spiritual realm exists or it does not. I watched a video on the burden of proof in another thread and absolutely loved it. The absolute truth is if God exists then the burden of proof is on him and not us to prove his existence. I came to the conclusion that if there was a God then it would be his responsibility to lead me and not mine to figure out how to be led properly. My experience, which is easily discredited by carnal logical thinkers who give no credence to the spiritual realm, brought me to the understanding that God does exist and is in fact the God of the bible. Critical thinkers have come up with all kinds of interesting and logical ways to give reasonable doubt to everything that I experience but such reasonable doubt is always rooted in the logic which concedes that there is no God and therefore we must have a material answer for everything. Of course you can do that! It is absolutely irrefutable logic that is based solely in the material aspect of observable understanding. It's like turning on the radio in my car and knowing it works and being able to take it apart to its smallest parts and define the physical way every part comes together as a whole to bring life to the sounds I hear. I can do that. But if there is in fact an unobservant immaterial aspect that allows radio waves to travel or electricity to be, it gets discounted since we cannot observe it. Just because children can't see the puppet master doesn't mean the puppet master isn't there. There understanding is only lacking. The same with magicians. The understanding is lacking. Atheism is merely that which refuses to accept that which cannot be observed. I get that.
God is immaterial? Well, even immaterial phenomena can be detected through other medium. We cannot see infra-red with our eyes, but we can see them through infra-red cameras. Electricity? Through multimeters we can find the current and voltage. Gravity? The influence of black holes on its surrounding space.

In my opinion, maybe you should rephrase it this way...
"If God exists, he would have had exerted some influence on our planet. It is up to us to find this influence to prove his existence"

If you can find how God has influenced us through physical evidence, then your case holds strong. Otherwise, it is perceived by others to be a weak structure supported only by faith. God is a comforting hypothesis, but is there any evidence to back up this hypothesis?

Amitabha, my friend. Thank you for sharing with us your views Smile

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29-04-2012, 10:51 PM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
The issue is that it's currently the main way people learn. Serious loss and a real trial. Anyway it's not like the US isn't causing countless wars as is. Just by virtue of the decision to outlaw marijuana the US doomed south america as a whole to excessive cartels and an extensive underground market.

From funding freedom fighters who turned into tyrants to shooting first without asking questions the US has caused a lot of destruction out there. It's not the greatest thing if more people die, but realize how many people die now. If a large portion dying at once can change the current rates then that is in the end good. Anyway I'm a huge proponent to the view that about half the world's human population needs to go.

Sorry if my views are a bit contrary to yours but I really don't hold special value to humans, so often enough I look to a pretty utilitarian standard. Seriously though I feel the US needs to understand what it's doing to the rest of the world, and that will require a hefty toll. Unfortunately politics have never really evolved. The only way to learn is through loss.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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30-04-2012, 12:58 AM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 10:51 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  The issue is that it's currently the main way people learn. Serious loss and a real trial. Anyway it's not like the US isn't causing countless wars as is. Just by virtue of the decision to outlaw marijuana the US doomed south america as a whole to excessive cartels and an extensive underground market.

From funding freedom fighters who turned into tyrants to shooting first without asking questions the US has caused a lot of destruction out there. It's not the greatest thing if more people die, but realize how many people die now. If a large portion dying at once can change the current rates then that is in the end good. Anyway I'm a huge proponent to the view that about half the world's human population needs to go.

Sorry if my views are a bit contrary to yours but I really don't hold special value to humans, so often enough I look to a pretty utilitarian standard. Seriously though I feel the US needs to understand what it's doing to the rest of the world, and that will require a hefty toll. Unfortunately politics have never really evolved. The only way to learn is through loss.

I travel a ridiculous amount and even though its a pain it isn't much of a change than I actually care. What worries me is that you believe such a sad loss of life is necessary for change and I strongly disagree with this position.

People in this country are remarkably stupid. It is unfortunately for that situation, that makes most citizens here care less.





The only thing that helped with the collapse of the twin towers was leading us into more war within the middle east. Tragedies rarely lead to anything fruitful(Except for horror and focus on war) which we could do much without.

It is sad to believe half the population should be eradicated but I believe having a lesser world population could lift the burdens of parts of the world. The problem is such a wipe out of our species would be caused by disease or an insane action of war which would most likely lead to our end(Or such a lack of people which I wouldn't deem good)

The only way to learn is to learn. Loss causes stupidity, anger, hatred and more loss. Did the German's learn from World War 1? Did we learn from the Vietnam war? Did any nation learn from a loss? Never. Unless they were completely defeated did they ever stop to pass that loss to anyone else.

I understand you believe that marijuana is a trouble in south america and I strongly want it legalized. I believe it has far more to do with people not understanding it(Which causes fear and could easily be solved by education) and any tragedy which would make it more publicly known would cause much more constrictive and insane measures, which again, we could do much without.

We need to learn and not by something horrific.

As a person who understands a toll and has seen how worse it can become after such an event. I see nothing at all that makes me believe such things could ever be good. I still believe you to be a very smart and intelligent person but I am against this and I hope you understand why.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
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30-04-2012, 01:57 AM
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(29-04-2012 10:51 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  The issue is that it's currently the main way people learn. Serious loss and a real trial. Anyway it's not like the US isn't causing countless wars as is. Just by virtue of the decision to outlaw marijuana the US doomed south america as a whole to excessive cartels and an extensive underground market.

From funding freedom fighters who turned into tyrants to shooting first without asking questions the US has caused a lot of destruction out there. It's not the greatest thing if more people die, but realize how many people die now. If a large portion dying at once can change the current rates then that is in the end good. Anyway I'm a huge proponent to the view that about half the world's human population needs to go.

Sorry if my views are a bit contrary to yours but I really don't hold special value to humans, so often enough I look to a pretty utilitarian standard. Seriously though I feel the US needs to understand what it's doing to the rest of the world, and that will require a hefty toll. Unfortunately politics have never really evolved. The only way to learn is through loss.
Lilith, you know I have a lot of respect for you, but I'm quite surprised by this.

Once we degrade the value of human life we're heading down the wrong track. We must never imagine killing people is a solution to anything.

There are many ways to learn that don't require loss.
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30-04-2012, 05:55 AM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2012 06:19 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: I thought you Atheists might be bored
(30-04-2012 01:57 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  We must never imagine killing people is a solution to anything.

What's to imagine? Sick of hearing about my Gwynnies? Kill me, and that's that. How is that not a solution? It is not immoral to kill, it is unethical. People get their heads full of PC fluff-n-stuff, start censoring their own thoughts, start to not have thoughts. Tongue


(29-04-2012 07:52 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  Either God exists or he does not.

You're a prophet of the extant god whereas I'm a prophet of the non-extant god. Tongue

There's a thing that continues to bug me about many theists. On one hand, they wanna preach a gospel of an omnigod; but then they wanna say idiotic crap like "first cause" or "either/or." Why is that? Because these theists are talking about themselves, not god. God can do both or neither, but a theist actually worships his own righteousness and seeks to inflict said righteousness upon others.

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