I've been thinking .......
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15-04-2013, 08:29 AM
RE: I've been thinking .......
(15-04-2013 04:49 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 04:02 AM)Egor Wrote:  Saying an atheist is going to hell is not hate or anger.

Yes, it is.

If one believes it to be factual, then it's not "hate or anger". It's like telling someone that they'll die someday... it might not be kind to remind them of their ultimate fate, but you don't have to hate someone or be angry with them to express a statement of fact. What I see here is an attempt to "play the victim card".

Don't get me wrong; I don't believe that anyone is going to hell. I use the term "statement of fact" as contrasted with "statement of opinion".

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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15-04-2013, 01:54 PM
 
RE: I've been thinking .......
(15-04-2013 04:49 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 04:02 AM)Egor Wrote:  Saying an atheist is going to hell is not hate or anger.

Yes, it is.

Then I have no control over that. If warning people is hate. Then I can't change that. But I don't think it's hate.

Quote:If god is fundamental monistic consciousness, then to deny god would be absurd. It would be like a hydrocarbon, a life form, denying carbon. The atheist does not deny god, the atheist denies dogma. The atheist denies the identity function applied to god by the theist.

Well, then you and I have nothing to argue about when it comes to God. Now we have to move forward. We have to go from the fundamental truth: God is the fundamental monistic consciousness and see where that leads. In my opinion, then, you're not an atheist.

Quote:You say there cannot be love and truth without god. The atheist knows love and truth. Ever stop to think that god can function without you and your definitions?

I have. I even think it's somewhat pointless to debate God's existence (which is probably why Jesus never did), because ultimately, it's not God's existence that is in question but what is the correct revelation of God, and what is expected of us as human beings by that God, that matters.

One doesn't go to hell for not believing in God, one goes to hell for rejecting Christ. It's just that if you don't believe in God, you can't believe in Christ.

Quote:You base your faith on an antiquated death-cult, you put words into the mouth of a fictional character - Jesus - and you do this to satisfy your own need for purpose. A purpose full of hatred, and anger.

Really?
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15-04-2013, 02:05 PM
RE: I've been thinking .......
I'm not accepting the "hell" concept, Big E. I have concluded it was a marketing ploy and no more. And yeah, me and you are pretty square on the god concept. No, I wouldn't be an atheist to you. Get that in RL as well. But, "atheist," as originally defined, means "not accepting the gods of public conception." Was more a dig against those who did not groove to Jupiter rather than YHWH.

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15-04-2013, 02:38 PM
 
RE: I've been thinking .......
(15-04-2013 08:25 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  I don't even know what to do with you. You still stereotype atheists after all this time, after all this interaction you've had with them. It saddens me that so many of them give you a bad impression of atheism. To be honest, they give me an equally bad impression -- it frustrates me when atheists act towards others in a way that they don't want to be treated. But it isn't atheism that makes them that way -- believers can be brutal to atheists, as well, but you haven't noticed because you haven't experienced it from this side (and also because your stereotype of Christians drives you to rationalize or deny hatred from Christians towards non-Christians).

I have a whole 'nother hatred and anger for Christians, believe me. In fact, I think I do have a problem with hate when it comes to them (as you may one day see in the memoir I'm writing). I don't hate atheists, but I have a real problem with Cro-Magnon Christians. It's something I struggle with, and God is going to have to bring me to a place where I'm not whipping in my heart and mind and online. The problem is, I don't get to express it much, because I get banned from their groups so fast.

But I have a plan that I'm forming, a plot that I'm hatching to use their forums and blogs to my purpose. Heehee. Yes

Quote:But the main issue here is that you avoided my question a second time. I don't expect you to know why Christians aren't evangelizing because that group doesn't include you -- again, it would involve you seeing things from a point-of-view that you don't share, the point-of-view of Christians who couldn't care less about what happens to the souls of the unbelieving. If you don't know the answer, it might be best to not answer the question.

I'm trying to answer. There are two reasons Christians don't evangelize here: 1. They really don't love their neighbor. and 2. They know their beliefs can't withstand rational scrutiny.
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15-04-2013, 02:44 PM
 
RE: I've been thinking .......
(15-04-2013 02:05 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I'm not accepting the "hell" concept, Big E. I have concluded it was a marketing ploy and no more. And yeah, me and you are pretty square on the god concept. No, I wouldn't be an atheist to you. Get that in RL as well. But, "atheist," as originally defined, means "not accepting the gods of public conception." Was more a dig against those who did not groove to Jupiter rather than YHWH.

Good. I'm glad to hear it (that you're not an atheist in the strict sense of the word). But if hell isn't real, then Jesus was lying or wrong. And if that is the case, then we can toss Jesus out the window.

But that's not the case. Hell, ultimately, can be shown to be necessary. It flows from the axiom that God is the fundamental monistic consciousness. Even in our own limited consciousness we create heaven and hell. I actually think it is part or an attribute of consciousness. What hell is like can only be surmised from the fact that it is a separation from and abscence of God.

But that's a whole 'nother topic.
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15-04-2013, 02:48 PM
 
RE: I've been thinking .......
(15-04-2013 08:29 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  If one believes it to be factual, then it's not "hate or anger". It's like telling someone that they'll die someday... it might not be kind to remind them of their ultimate fate, but you don't have to hate someone or be angry with them to express a statement of fact.

The difference being one can avoid hell. So, I would consider it kind to remind all atheists that they will in fact go to hell for rejecting Christ.

Actually, I can see I'm going to have to change my toon a bit here. One doesn't go to hell for being an atheist. One goes to hell for rejecting Christ. I just have yet to see how one could believe in Christ and deny that God is the fundamental monistic consciousness.
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15-04-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: I've been thinking .......
But I reject Christ. So can I get my ticket stamped ? 'Cos it's cold over here...
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15-04-2013, 07:22 PM
RE: I've been thinking .......
(15-04-2013 04:02 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(14-04-2013 09:58 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hey Egor, re
"I love you and the Lord loves you."
MMMMMmmmmmm. You writing that surprises me.
Can you conceed that many of your posts over the last few months have been spewing hate and anger, even hinting at violence?

Don't be silly. Saying an atheist is going to hell is not hate or anger. It's truth, and it's avoidable, and there is power in being Christ--there is sanctification. Atheists, many of them anyway, are great thinkers. They are very close to the Kingdom of God. They just need a push. That's what I do--I push.

Quote:Can you conceed that people might be just a little...um...suspicious of your real emotions here?

"I love you, and the Lord loves you" is a line I picked up from the movie "The Apostle" with Robert Duvall. I thought it sounded great and really reflected the way I feel about people. So, like a good writer, I stole the line and now I use it. And I mean it when I say it.

Quote:For example, I doubt there are many people on this forum who's feel comfortable living in the same suburb as you, let alone meeting you socially.

There's an atheist in my Toastmasters club. He got up and did a table topics presentation on it. In fact, it was kind of funny, we had to try to guess who had written on the slip of paper that they were an atheist. One guy said, "I think it's Edward." Another member spoke up and said, "Uh...no, I guarantee it's not Edward."

When the guy gave his speech. I didn't think one way or the other. I thought he was an misinformed, but I thought that before I knew he was an atheist. I don't feel animosity towards him. And if we ever debate it would be very cordial and civil, because that's how I am in the 3D world. I'm a minister, a nurse, a martial artist, and ex-military. That allows me to be one of the most humble people you'll ever meet in person.

Quote:Keep being tolerant and pacifist...you'll make a lot more friends if you do.

I want to apologize for being mean to you in the past. I'm ashamed of that now. I won't back down--not ever; your soul is on the line. But I love you and the Lord loves you, and I really think I should treat you like the original creation God loved enough to incarnate into this world Down Under.

Shocking

And you don't have to believe that I really do care about you. It changes me just to tell you so. Hell, it changes the whole world.

Ed.

Gosh....you're a complex character.

It's nice to hear there's a touch of the humanist in you.

It's also good to hear you admit you have some faults. We all have faults.

I hope for your sake your humility and warmth is not an act, but something that you genuinely feel.

Time will tell.
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15-04-2013, 08:39 PM
RE: I've been thinking .......
(15-04-2013 02:44 PM)Egor Wrote:  Good. I'm glad to hear it (that you're not an atheist in the strict sense of the word). But if hell isn't real, then Jesus was lying or wrong. And if that is the case, then we can toss Jesus out the window.

The salvation paradigm is contrasted by both Exodus and Ezekiel... at least. There is a third option. One that stems from what is most likely factual. Jesus, if he existed - unlikely, in my view - had words put into his mouth by Paul's evangelists for mass market appeal. We know the gospels were written well after the supposed life of Christ, and also at least a decade after Paul's epistles. We know that they were later edited, with whole sections clearly being fabricated. And we know that the number of gospels is closer to thirty than to four.

All of which screams "agenda."

By the Christ's own logic, the widest path cannot thus be the one to truth. And what path is wider than, "be a Christian, or go to hell?" Of all the Christians I talked with, none - as in zero - can comprehend an absence of hell.

"It's in the Bible," they say. "Jesus said," they say. "My minister told me..."

Don't listen to me. Listen to your heart. Does it really feel good to tell peeps they're going to hell?

Looks like a pretty wide doorway from here.

Oh... the third option? Be the Christ. (Tongue and yeah, I was saying that a year before joining these fora.) The intermediary between the mortal and the divine.

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