I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
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20-09-2013, 06:59 AM
RE: I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
(20-09-2013 12:59 AM)I and I Wrote:  Making threads like this will not make you popular on this forum. The vast majority of posters (regular posters that post on political topics) follow the western propaganda when regarding Israel. Ask Chas, Kim, Muffy, Revenant, Cljr, Hafnof, Bucky ball. They will either ignore this thread or come up with bullshit excuses for Israeli Appartheid. You can ask them personally or direct them to this thread to see what I mean about the type of people that post on this forum.

Are you even trying? Because neither I nor the people you listed have ever expressed such views. We do know that you're pathologically incapable of honest discussion and reading comprehension.

Remember the several times we've discussed Israel? Remember how the most egregious actions are not sanctioned by either the government or the large majority of Israeli citizens? Remember how the fractious electoral system leaves the balance of power in the hands of small extremist parties? Remember how the security forces' hands are tied? I guess not.

(20-09-2013 06:52 AM)I and I Wrote:  You are going to comment on the video right?

Do I need to bother? In your delusions you're apparently quite sure of what what people here think. And lest I forget, you can read minds, even in the past.

But I'll humour you: what's to say? That's bad? Yes. Much grounds for discussion there.

(ps: let me know if you see that cljr guy around again)

...

But we know that's not what's really important.

How's your study of quantum mechanics going, chum? Need any help with it?

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20-09-2013, 07:00 AM
RE: I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
(20-09-2013 12:59 AM)I and I Wrote:  Making threads like this will not make you popular on this forum. The vast majority of posters (regular posters that post on political topics) follow the western propaganda when regarding Israel. Ask Chas, Kim, Muffy, Revenant, Cljr, Hafnof, Bucky ball. They will either ignore this thread or come up with bullshit excuses for Israeli Appartheid. You can ask them personally or direct them to this thread to see what I mean about the type of people that post on this forum.

Since you called me out by name: You don't get positive responses to your posts on this subject because you are a paranoid and anti-Semitic and aren't prepared to have an adult conversation that involves arguments, counterarguments, factual information, proportionate responses, or any kind of nuance. If a poster doesn't accept your argument that destroying the state of Israel and dispossessing her people is the best immediate course of action you consider them an idiot and an enemy, which doesn't reflect well upon you and people respond to you accordingly.

I'm not aware of anyone I know who thinks that Israeli "settlers" are the victims in Palestine. I don't have any easy answers, but of all the moves that could be made in this game of chess I think the destruction of the state of Israel would be one of the least productive. Productive steps I can think of:
1. Bring Palestinian refugees (many of which have lived outside of Palestine now for generations in refugee camps) out of their camps and back into Israel and/or Palestine and/or accept them as citizens in the countries they occupy.
2. Stop the illegal spread of Israeli "settlements"
After that I don't know where to go. I personally doubt a two-state solution can work in the long term, especially if Palestine remains split up and spread out in multiple pockets effectively within the state of Israel. If I had to choose between the two states I would choose Israel because I think it has a more mature civil infrastructure such as courts and police, but I would require a one state solution to incorporate and grant citizenship to all of her people and refugees. Give all Palestinians the vote in Israel and see how things change Wink But perhaps a two-state solution is more predictable in the short term.

And no - whether a particular subset of people within Israel are racist or whores or otherwise doesn't particularly influence my opinion about how the whole mess should be resolved.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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20-09-2013, 07:06 AM
RE: I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
(20-09-2013 07:00 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Since you called me out by name: You don't get positive responses to your posts on this subject because you are a paranoid and anti-Semitic and aren't prepared to have an adult conversation that involves arguments, counterarguments, factual information, proportionate responses, or any kind of nuance. If a poster doesn't accept your argument that destroying the state of Israel and dispossessing her people is the best immediate course of action you consider them an idiot and an enemy, which doesn't reflect well upon you and people respond to you accordingly.

I'm not aware of anyone I know who thinks that Israeli "settlers" are the victims in Palestine. I don't have any easy answers, but of all the moves that could be made in this game of chess I think the destruction of the state of Israel would be one of the least productive. Productive steps I can think of:
1. Bring Palestinian refugees (many of which have lived outside of Palestine now for generations in refugee camps) out of their camps and back into Israel and/or Palestine and/or accept them as citizens in the countries they occupy.
2. Stop the illegal spread of Israeli "settlements"
After that I don't know where to go. I personally doubt a two-state solution can work in the long term, especially if Palestine remains split up and spread out in multiple pockets effectively within the state of Israel. If I had to choose between the two states I would choose Israel because I think it has a more mature civil infrastructure such as courts and police, but I would require a one state solution to incorporate and grant citizenship to all of her people and refugees. Give all Palestinians the vote in Israel and see how things change Wink But perhaps a two-state solution is more predictable in the short term.

And no - whether a particular subset of people within Israel are racist or whores or otherwise doesn't particularly influence my opinion about how the whole mess should be resolved.

Pfft. You know better than that, Hafnof! I thought you were a smart guy!

It goes like this:
Some Israelis are racist.
THEREFORE all Israelis are racist
THEREFORE unless you hate all of them you are racist and fascist
THEREFORE America cocks propaganda cocks cocks

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20-09-2013, 07:08 AM
RE: I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
(20-09-2013 06:59 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 12:59 AM)I and I Wrote:  Making threads like this will not make you popular on this forum. The vast majority of posters (regular posters that post on political topics) follow the western propaganda when regarding Israel. Ask Chas, Kim, Muffy, Revenant, Cljr, Hafnof, Bucky ball. They will either ignore this thread or come up with bullshit excuses for Israeli Appartheid. You can ask them personally or direct them to this thread to see what I mean about the type of people that post on this forum.

Are you even trying? Because neither I nor the people you listed have ever expressed such views. We do know that you're pathologically incapable of honest discussion and reading comprehension.

Remember the several times we've discussed Israel? Remember how the most egregious actions are not sanctioned by either the government or the large majority of Israeli citizens? Remember how the fractious electoral system leaves the balance of power in the hands of small extremist parties? Remember how the security forces' hands are tied? I guess not.

(20-09-2013 06:52 AM)I and I Wrote:  You are going to comment on the video right?

Do I need to bother? In your delusions you're apparently quite sure of what what people here think. And lest I forget, you can read minds, even in the past.

But I'll humour you: what's to say? That's bad? Yes. Much grounds for discussion there.

(ps: let me know if you see that cljr guy around again)

...

But we know that's not what's really important.

How's your study of quantum mechanics going, chum? Need any help with it?

The Israeli government implements a racist apartheid system, the political environment in Israel can't be blamed on just some radicals.
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20-09-2013, 07:14 AM
RE: I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
(20-09-2013 07:08 AM)I and I Wrote:  The Israeli government implements a racist apartheid system, the political environment in Israel can't be blamed on just some radicals.

A majority of delegates in the Knesset does not necessarily represent the majority of the population.

However, due to the specifics of the system in place in Israel, the balance of power in the Knesset (you know what that is, right?) does fall to small parties.

As I said, we've been over this before. A quick forum search on the word 'Knesset' returns:
(27-06-2013 02:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-06-2013 01:53 PM)I and I Wrote:  So we agree on the Israeli government. Who elects them into power I wonder? Have you seen polls taken of Israelis on their thoughts on Palestinians?

I don't have any polls at hand, and don't recall seeing any on specific issues, but there was a fair bit of polling before January's election, which you can probably find as easily as I could at this point. That at least would give a general impression of people's views.

As for said election, ultra-Zionist and ultra-orthodox (which despite the overlap are not the same and can't always be lumped together) parties combined for about 25% of the vote. Those groups typically have extremely high turnout.

Nearly 20% of votes were for some variety of Socialist.

If Israeli Arabs (~20% of the country) voted in anywhere near the same proportion (Israeli Arab turnout is currently somewhere south of 50%) then between them and the Socialists (who are almost all supporters of unilateral drawback) would represent a much bigger constituency than the jerkwads on the far right. Unfortunately they're in a rut of self-defeating cynicism (they're not well-represented because they're not courted by parties because they don't vote because they're not well-represented etc) and that hasn't happened.

The Knesset runs on straight nation-wide proportional representation, with 120 seats and a 2% threshold for representation, so small parties can, ironically, be disproportionately influential.

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20-09-2013, 07:39 AM
RE: I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
(20-09-2013 07:14 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 07:08 AM)I and I Wrote:  The Israeli government implements a racist apartheid system, the political environment in Israel can't be blamed on just some radicals.

A majority of delegates in the Knesset does not necessarily represent the majority of the population.

However, due to the specifics of the system in place in Israel, the balance of power in the Knesset (you know what that is, right?) does fall to small parties.

As I said, we've been over this before. A quick forum search on the word 'Knesset' returns:
(27-06-2013 02:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I don't have any polls at hand, and don't recall seeing any on specific issues, but there was a fair bit of polling before January's election, which you can probably find as easily as I could at this point. That at least would give a general impression of people's views.

As for said election, ultra-Zionist and ultra-orthodox (which despite the overlap are not the same and can't always be lumped together) parties combined for about 25% of the vote. Those groups typically have extremely high turnout.

Nearly 20% of votes were for some variety of Socialist.

If Israeli Arabs (~20% of the country) voted in anywhere near the same proportion (Israeli Arab turnout is currently somewhere south of 50%) then between them and the Socialists (who are almost all supporters of unilateral drawback) would represent a much bigger constituency than the jerkwads on the far right. Unfortunately they're in a rut of self-defeating cynicism (they're not well-represented because they're not courted by parties because they don't vote because they're not well-represented etc) and that hasn't happened.

The Knesset runs on straight nation-wide proportional representation, with 120 seats and a 2% threshold for representation, so small parties can, ironically, be disproportionately influential.


So you are arguing that the Israeli government is racist and sexist but the majority of Israeli citizens are not?
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20-09-2013, 07:48 AM
RE: I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
I'll thank you to stop calling me out and presupposing my opinions or responses.

Your behavior here continues to be childishly aggressive and has won you no friends.

You seem incapable of learning from your mistakes.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-09-2013, 08:34 AM
RE: I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
(20-09-2013 07:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  I'll thank you to stop calling me out and presupposing my opinions or responses.

Your behavior here continues to be childishly aggressive and has won you no friends.

You seem incapable of learning from your mistakes.

Respond to the video posted in the op then.
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20-09-2013, 08:54 AM
RE: I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
I&I you're an idiot.

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20-09-2013, 09:31 AM
RE: I want your thoughts and opinions on this video:
IMO, this is a simple problem that was solved 700 years ago. In the 13th century, in most parts of the world every religious/ethnic group insisted they were right and used violence to force the entire realm to do things their way. But, in one area, a group of 30 or so tribes agreed to lay down their arms, they agreed to disagree, and to peacefully coexist side-by-side without trying to force their ways on the others. They picked a neutral name they could all agree upon for this union, the Confederation Helvetic (Switzerland), and agreed that at the national level government would be purely defensive, and each tribe (Canton) could have it's own autonomous rule. This attitude of tolerance lead to stability and prosperity, so that today it's the only government from the 13th century that's still standing, they haven't been at war for hundreds of years, and their families are the wealthiest in the world.

If the Israeli's and Palestinians did the same thing, the could enjoy peace, stability and focus their resources on bettering their lives instead of fighting. Just pick a neutral name for the nation as a whole, and shift all the power to the local level. They could still have primarily Jewish states, Arab states, atheist states, whatever. There'd be a place for everybody.

It can't happen because, as shown in the other thread on 'political views', today only a few percent of the population is willing to reject the use of violence to solve their problems. Nobody's content to have local laws for their community. Each side, whether it's Jews or Arabs, Democrats or Republicans, fights to the death to get control of the whole country so that they can beat the other side into submission.

Our debate in the 'political views' thread is exactly what's going on in Israel/Palestine. Each side thinks it's not violence if they get the state to do it on their behalf. Those Jews in this video that kicked the Palestinians out of their house at gunpoint would insist they were peaceful because it was carried out by the state. They'll play games with the definitions of violence and physicial force to convince themselves they're not being violent, even thought the definitions are unambiguous. And, as you'll see in that thread, most people in the Western world similarly insist on having one set of laws for the whole nation, and forcing the whole nation to do it their way. In my last debate with @cjlr, he insists there's no advantage to restricting the laws to the local/state level--he wants one set of laws (his set) that is forced on the whole nation, with no room for dissent. Just like the Jews and Palestinians, they are not content to restrict the national government to playing a defensive role and leaving all the subjective, moral issues to the local level. No, they insist their beliefs are the right one, and they must be enforced at the national level so that dissenters are forced to change, rather than simply being allowed to relocate to an area where they feel more at home.

So, imo, the solution to the Israel/Palestine problem is simple and obvious, and it's a solution that's been proven successful. The barrier is getting people to put down their guns and stop trying to force their will on the whole nation. I haven't been able to get anybody here to agree to do that, so I have no clue how to get the Jews and Arabs to do it.
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