"I was a christian", theist argument.
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09-10-2015, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2015 03:39 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 03:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 03:20 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sorry I assumed that based on your history in the southern baptist denomination. I assumed you parents were a part of the church you went to? If not do your parents go to church? If so what denomination are they a part of? Do they lean more towards the conservative side? Oppose abortion? Believe homosexuality is immoral?

Why? What's your agenda? More attempts to draw some arbitrary correlation based on further arrogant presumptions?

Because you don't hate them.

And if you don't hate them, like you do your in-laws, yet if they oppose abortion, believe homosexuality is immoral, then I'd wonder why not?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-10-2015, 03:41 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 03:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 03:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Why? What's your agenda? More attempts to draw some arbitrary correlation based on further arrogant presumptions?

Because you don't hate them.

And if you don't hate them, yet if they oppose abortion, believe homosexuality is immoral, then I'd wonder why not?

Clearly you've already made an assumption about their views and why I don't "hate" them.

I still hate the religious views even they ascribe too. But they don't push it on me or my wife or my son. So I don't give a damn what they believe in that realm.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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09-10-2015, 03:50 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2015 03:55 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 03:41 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 03:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Because you don't hate them.

And if you don't hate them, yet if they oppose abortion, believe homosexuality is immoral, then I'd wonder why not?

Clearly you've already made an assumption about their views and why I don't "hate" them.

I still hate the religious views even they ascribe too. But they don't push it on me or my wife or my son. So I don't give a damn what they believe in that realm.

Opposing abortion, holding a view of homosexuality as immoral, being supportive of political stances in lieu of these things are intruding on other people's lives. You parents may not be intruding on your life, but they are (from what I gather, and you're welcome to correct me) intruding on the lives of others by their support of these positions.

This doesn't lead you to feel hatred towards them though. But you do feel hatred towards your in laws, because they're intrusive to your own personal life. Earlier you seemed to suggest this dynamic wasn't the significant contributer to your hatred towards the religious, appealing to conservative political stances and the like as just as important. Yet you don't hate your parents, who seems to be supportive of these political stances, you hate. There's something inconsistent here, and that's why I'm asking you to clarify.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-10-2015, 03:57 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What I think is that folks tend to over emphasize the power of their thinking, and under emphasize their feelings. And provide reasons and justifications for one thing or the other, under the impression that they’re their captains of their ship, rather than passengers. That it’s all the same basic pathology that goes with beliefs in free-will, and the esteemed sense of one’s autonomy. To acknowledge the falsity of these things, requires a bit of rethinking of how you got from point A to point B.

Your opinion does not cover those who never went from A to B or B to A.

I have always been an atheist as it is absurd to believe without evidence and to believe fantasies.

I remember in Sunday school thinking "Do these adults actually believe this shit?" and feeling embarrassed for them. I was nine.

Quote:And what I say is that a person’s history, a biographical portrait of their lives, reveals far more about why they believe the things they do, than any introspective response, especially the sort that tries to brush these details under the rug. There’s more to be said as to why you’re an atheists, and why I’m a believer, in the details of your family life, your friendships, relationships, and experiences, than supposedly objective rational you spit out.
[

Spit out? Charming.
Are now going to deny that you purposely chose that phrase to be dismissive and offensive?

You spew so much garbage you could supply a waste treatment plant..

Quote:This doesn’t require me to be a mind reader, but is rather just stating the obvious.

It is only obvious to you, methinks.

Quote:The reasons for why you or I are attracted to certain set of beliefs, have more to do with you as a person, shaped by your history, from an endless stream of factors. And those immediate relationships good and bad, are likely to be the most the significant aspect in this shaping than anything else. To believe otherwise, is more a product of magical thinking than anything else. That you some how found a bag of fairy dust that your sprinkled on yourself, that allowed you to transcend the limitations imposed on everybody else.

You seem to miss the point that people can learn how to think rationally and approach claims skeptically.

Quote:If you told me about your parents, about you relationship with your family, your upbringing, and those folks that occupy your immediate reality, you would be telling me more so as to why you’re an atheists, than any removed rational you dispense that keeps these aspects off the table. Is this rocket science, or mind reading? No. It’s just how shit works.

The singular is "atheist". Learn it.
My family did not make me an atheist.

Quote:
Quote:That there are atheists of all walks of life and yet religious affiliation is highly segregated by community is, I'm sure, entirely coincidental.


There’s probably for more homogeny among self-identifying atheists, than among self-identifying christians or muslims. But yes the community aspect is not coincidental at all, but likely not in the way you mean to imply it here. Religions live and thrive off of community, and die when those structures become eroded, or irrelevant for any particular group of people. It’s not coincidental that folks who abandon religious communities, have little interest in communities all together. You don’t find that for every dead church, a humanist gathering arises to take it’s place. Or that nations with high levels of atheisms, are welfare states, where the state has acquired nearly all the aspects that people once depended on their communities for. And again there’s more to say as why you’re an atheists, in why participating in any meaningful community, with real commitments and relationships, doesn’t appeal to you, than there is some sort of scientific observations you learned about.

Your hubris is amazing. Please provide some actual evidence for any of that.

Quote:While the story in which atheism, arises by a humanity being led by the light of reason to it, as a sort of historical waking up, occurring in greater frequency as time marches on, might be an attractive one to you, it’s just a myth. Shit don’t work like that.

Sez you. Drinking Beverage
Back it up or shut up.

Quote:
Quote:It's a hell of a long way to go to pretend you're not just scotsmanning it, but whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.

I don’t find myself scotsmanning at all, since I’m not arguing that folks who were former theists, of former atheists, weren’t really theists of atheists at the time. I’m agreeing with a point that’s likely agreed upon here, that Kirk Cameron may have been an atheist, but nothing like the you, or other atheists here, and that this works both ways.

He may consider himself whatever he likes. It has nothing to do with my atheism.

Stop assuming your weird ideas have any basis in reality without having evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2015, 04:30 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2015 04:48 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 03:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your opinion does not cover those who never went from A to B or B to A.

I have always been an atheist as it is absurd to believe without evidence and to believe fantasies.

I remember in Sunday school thinking "Do these adults actually believe this shit?" and feeling embarrassed for them. I was nine.

My views only really cover the individual I am speaking with. Everyone has their own unique lives and histories that lead them to where they are, including you. Religious beliefs were never able to take hold of you right, even at the delicate age of 9, in Sunday school. Why do you think that was? Were your parents not particularly religious either? Or did they try to indoctrinate you, but failed to do so, because of a disposition that’s been a part of you even when you were a kid? Perhaps born with?

Quote:Spit out? Charming.
Are now going to deny that you purposely chose that phrase to be dismissive and offensive?

The only thing it’s suppose to be dismissive of and offend is the very idea of objective rational.

Quote:You seem to miss the point that people can learn how to think rationally and approach claims skeptically.

One way to get people to think skeptically about something, to make people less inclined to hold any particular set of beliefs, because they’re embarrassing, offensive, and smudge your reputation. If you make something costly to believe, you can create a good degree of skepticism about it. Take a church, and make parishioners so invested in being a believer, and offer them a set of views that are supportive of atheism, and all you’ll find is skepticism, even to the extreme. But of course you’d likely suggest that’s not true skepticism, but you’d just be no truescottsmanning.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-10-2015, 04:56 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 04:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 03:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your opinion does not cover those who never went from A to B or B to A.

I have always been an atheist as it is absurd to believe without evidence and to believe fantasies.

I remember in Sunday school thinking "Do these adults actually believe this shit?" and feeling embarrassed for them. I was nine.

My views only really cover the individual I am speaking with. Everyone has their own unique lives and histories that lead them to where they are, including you. Religious beliefs were never able to take hold of you right, even at the delicate age of 9, in Sunday school. Why do you think that was? Were your parents not particularly religious either? Or did they try to indoctrinate you, but failed to do so, because of a disposition that’s been a part of you even when you were a kid? Perhaps born with?

Quote:Spit out? Charming.
Are now going to deny that you purposely chose that phrase to be dismissive and offensive?

The only thing it’s suppose to be dismissive of and offend is the very idea of objective rational.

What is "objective rational"? Is it a red herring? Consider

Quote:
Quote:You seem to miss the point that people can learn how to think rationally and approach claims skeptically.

One way to get people to think skeptically about something, to make people less inclined to hold any particular set of beliefs, because they’re embarrassing, offensive, and smudge your reputation. If you make something costly to believe, you can create a good degree of skepticism about it.

And that has nothing to do with rational thinking. That is coercion.

Quote:Take a church, and make parishioners so invested in being a believer, and offer them a set of views that are supportive of atheism, and all you’ll find is skepticism, even to the extreme. But of course you’d likely suggest that’s not true skepticism, but you’d just be no truescottsmanning.

You really have to shove your bullshit assumptions about others' positions up your ass.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2015, 10:42 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 04:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The only thing it’s suppose to be dismissive of and offend is the very idea of objective rational.

Assuming that you meant to type "ideas being objectively rational", you have failed to present any reason to reject that idea.

This is, of course, because you still don't understand what those words actually mean.

(09-10-2015 04:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  One way to get people to think skeptically about something, to make people less inclined to hold any particular set of beliefs, because they’re embarrassing, offensive, and smudge your reputation. If you make something costly to believe, you can create a good degree of skepticism about it. Take a church, and make parishioners so invested in being a believer, and offer them a set of views that are supportive of atheism, and all you’ll find is skepticism, even to the extreme. But of course you’d likely suggest that’s not true skepticism, but you’d just be no truescottsmanning.

No. You'd be applying the actual definition of skepticism.

"Skepticism" does not mean "unwilling to accept an idea". "Skepticism" means "the epistemological position that you should not hold belief in unevidenced entities".

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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10-10-2015, 12:12 AM (This post was last modified: 10-10-2015 03:21 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 10:42 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 04:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The only thing it’s suppose to be dismissive of and offend is the very idea of objective rational.

Assuming that you meant to type "ideas being objectively rational", you have failed to present any reason to reject that idea.

This is, of course, because you still don't understand what those words actually mean.

(09-10-2015 04:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  One way to get people to think skeptically about something, to make people less inclined to hold any particular set of beliefs, because they’re embarrassing, offensive, and smudge your reputation. If you make something costly to believe, you can create a good degree of skepticism about it. Take a church, and make parishioners so invested in being a believer, and offer them a set of views that are supportive of atheism, and all you’ll find is skepticism, even to the extreme. But of course you’d likely suggest that’s not true skepticism, but you’d just be no truescottsmanning.

No. You'd be applying the actual definition of skepticism.

"Skepticism" does not mean "unwilling to accept an idea". "Skepticism" means "the epistemological position that you should not hold belief in unevidenced entities".

The people in his description are being skeptical, but they're not following the idea of skepticism in it's scientific or even really philosophical position.

Simply being skeptical isn't skepticism by any definitions descriptions. Skepticism is a disposition, method, or doctrine.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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10-10-2015, 03:15 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 03:50 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 03:41 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Clearly you've already made an assumption about their views and why I don't "hate" them.

I still hate the religious views even they ascribe too. But they don't push it on me or my wife or my son. So I don't give a damn what they believe in that realm.

Opposing abortion, holding a view of homosexuality as immoral, being supportive of political stances in lieu of these things are intruding on other people's lives. You parents may not be intruding on your life, but they are (from what I gather, and you're welcome to correct me) intruding on the lives of others by their support of these positions.

This doesn't lead you to feel hatred towards them though. But you do feel hatred towards your in laws, because they're intrusive to your own personal life. Earlier you seemed to suggest this dynamic wasn't the significant contributer to your hatred towards the religious, appealing to conservative political stances and the like as just as important. Yet you don't hate your parents, who seems to be supportive of these political stances, you hate. There's something inconsistent here, and that's why I'm asking you to clarify.

You continue to miss the point and continue to assume you know what political stances my family support, your ignorance is showing again.

There isn't anything inconsistent in what I've told you, you don't accept it because it doesn't fit the presumptions you've made that constitute your straw man version of what I've said.

Do you believe your arrogance in judgement is consistent with your lie that you're here to learn about opposing views? Or is it consistent with you being here to preach and proselytize in your efforts to confront atheism and atheists?

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11-10-2015, 06:17 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2015 06:39 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(10-10-2015 03:15 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 03:50 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Opposing abortion, holding a view of homosexuality as immoral, being supportive of political stances in lieu of these things are intruding on other people's lives. You parents may not be intruding on your life, but they are (from what I gather, and you're welcome to correct me) intruding on the lives of others by their support of these positions.

This doesn't lead you to feel hatred towards them though. But you do feel hatred towards your in laws, because they're intrusive to your own personal life. Earlier you seemed to suggest this dynamic wasn't the significant contributer to your hatred towards the religious, appealing to conservative political stances and the like as just as important. Yet you don't hate your parents, who seems to be supportive of these political stances, you hate. There's something inconsistent here, and that's why I'm asking you to clarify.

You continue to miss the point and continue to assume you know what political stances my family support, your ignorance is showing again.


Since you attended a southern baptist church when you were younger, it seems fair to assume you parents are a part of that denomination. If not, then what denomination are they a part of? Do they believe homosexuality is immoral, do they believe abortion is immoral? Do they lean on the conservative political spectrum?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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