"I was a christian", theist argument.
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11-10-2015, 06:36 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2015 06:47 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 10:42 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No. You'd be applying the actual definition of skepticism.

"Skepticism" does not mean "unwilling to accept an idea". "Skepticism" means "the epistemological position that you should not hold belief in unevidenced entities".

I don't think you pay attention to when such individuals are "unwilling to accept an idea" as you put it. They use the same justifications as everybody else. Those who reject evolution claim there's no evidence for it, or "unevidenced" based as you put it. What might be pointed out as evidence by others, is claimed as not being evidence, the same way atheists who deny the existence of a historical Jesus deny any particular thing used by others as support of his existence, as not evidence.

To claim that one group is true skeptics, and other group is not, is just a no true scotsman.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-10-2015, 07:30 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 06:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 10:42 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No. You'd be applying the actual definition of skepticism.

"Skepticism" does not mean "unwilling to accept an idea". "Skepticism" means "the epistemological position that you should not hold belief in unevidenced entities".

I don't think you pay attention to when such individuals are "unwilling to accept an idea" as you put it. They use the same justifications as everybody else. Those who reject evolution claim there's no evidence for it, or "unevidenced" based as you put it. What might be pointed out as evidence by others, is claimed as not being evidence, the same way atheists who deny the existence of a historical Jesus deny any particular thing used by others as support of his existence, as not evidence.

To claim that one group is true skeptics, and other group is not, is just a no true scotsman.

I tried to explain that to prevent that but you apparently don't quite see it.

It's not no-trust Scotsman, you're conflated 2 words which are related but not entirely the same word or have the same meaning as if they're solely the same 1 thing.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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11-10-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 07:30 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I tried to explain that to prevent that but you apparently don't quite see it.

It's not no-trust Scotsman, you're conflated 2 words which are related but not entirely the same word or have the same meaning as if they're solely the same 1 thing.

There seems to be no discernible difference between how any two people appeal to skepticism in relationship to any particular claim, other than applying it to different claims. The co-opt the same jargon, repeat the same propositions, perhaps some would label some other people's level of skepticism to be unhealthy, while others might think it to be entirely adequate.

While you may appeal to it being some method, or doctrine, there's no particular vatican like organization that defines it's meaning. And we all seem to acquire the terms in the same sloppy ways as we acquire every other colloquial term. Trying to claim that a person's skepticism regarding evolution is not true skepticism, while a those who are skeptical of the historical existence of Jesus are true skeptics, it's just one huge no true scotsman fallacy.

All that's being communicated when most people claim they are skeptical of any particular position, is that they themselves find it unbelievable, it communicates almost next to nothing about the actual claim itself, and they're likely to appeal to the same terminology and phrasings as others when provided the basis for why the find it unbelievable, like that's not evidence, etc....

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-10-2015, 08:26 AM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 06:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-10-2015 03:15 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You continue to miss the point and continue to assume you know what political stances my family support, your ignorance is showing again.


Since you attended a southern baptist church when you were younger, it seems fair to assume you parents are a part of that denomination. If not, then what denomination are they a part of? Do they believe homosexuality is immoral, do they believe abortion is immoral? Do they lean on the conservative political spectrum?

I've already addressed your idiotic presumptions about the political opinions of my parents.

You think it's "fair to assume" about a lot of things, when it isn't. You assume too much and it makes you look like an ignorant ass. Maybe that's because you are Consider

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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11-10-2015, 08:33 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 08:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There seems to be no discernible difference between how any two people appeal to skepticism in relationship to any particular claim, other than applying it to different claims. The co-opt the same jargon, repeat the same propositions, perhaps some would label some other people's level of skepticism to be unhealthy, while others might think it to be entirely adequate.

While you may appeal to it being some method, or doctrine, there's no particular vatican like organization that defines it's meaning. And we all seem to acquire the terms in the same sloppy ways as we acquire every other colloquial term. Trying to claim that a person's skepticism regarding evolution is not true skepticism, while a those who are skeptical of the historical existence of Jesus are true skeptics, it's just one huge no true scotsman fallacy.

You are still not seeing it. The difference is the existence of evidence.

Evolution: lots of evidence that one would have to ignore.

Existence of Jesus: only hearsay, no actual evidence.

Quote:All that's being communicated when most people claim they are skeptical of any particular position, is that they themselves find it unbelievable, it communicates almost next to nothing about the actual claim itself, and they're likely to appeal to the same terminology and phrasings as others when provided the basis for why the find it unbelievable, like that's not evidence, etc....

Skepticism is about evaluating evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-10-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 08:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are still not seeing it. The difference is the existence of evidence.

Evolution: lots of evidence that one would have to ignore.

Existence of Jesus: only hearsay, no actual evidence.

Skepticism is about evaluating evidence.

And pretty much any person who rejects evolution will claim, there's no actual evidence for it, that it's all just circumstantial, etc....They'd say something along the lines of actual evidence would be observing billions of years of evolution occurring first hand, etc.... Then you'd say no that's not what "actual evidence" would require, etc....

None of it actually means anything, and the only thing being communicated, is some entirely subjective threshold in what it would require Chas or Ken Ham, or Stevil, to believe something. Those things your refer to as hearsay, are things others refer to as actual evidence. Evidence is anything a person uses in support of any particular view or position they hold as true. And that definition is consistent with with anyones appeal to it, and doesn't require the magical lines in the sand that others resort to.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-10-2015, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2015 09:28 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 08:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 06:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Since you attended a southern baptist church when you were younger, it seems fair to assume you parents are a part of that denomination. If not, then what denomination are they a part of? Do they believe homosexuality is immoral, do they believe abortion is immoral? Do they lean on the conservative political spectrum?

I've already addressed your idiotic presumptions about the political opinions of my parents.

You think it's "fair to assume" about a lot of things, when it isn't. You assume too much and it makes you look like an ignorant ass. Maybe that's because you are Consider

You didn't really answer any questions about you parents background.

Are they a part of the Southern Baptists Denomination?

Do they believe homosexuality is immoral?

Do they believe abortion is immoral?

Do they lean politically on the conservative side on these issues?

Quote: You assume too much and it makes you look like an ignorant ass.

I assume based on whatever information is provided to me, but these assumptions are provisional and open to revision, when more information becomes available to me.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-10-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
Quote:None of it actually means anything, and the only thing being communicated, is some entirely subjective threshold in what it would require Chas or Ken Ham, or Stevil, to believe something. Those things your refer to as hearsay, are things others refer to as actual evidence. Evidence is anything a person uses in support of any particular view or position they hold as true. And that definition is consistent with with anyones appeal to it, and doesn't require the magical lines in the sand that others resort to.
[/quote]

I'm not sure you're an atheist but you surely are free thinking. If the police in my country stops seeing difference between hearsay and actual evidence I'll emigrate.
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11-10-2015, 09:29 AM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 08:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I've already addressed your idiotic presumptions about the political opinions of my parents.

You think it's "fair to assume" about a lot of things, when it isn't. You assume too much and it makes you look like an ignorant ass. Maybe that's because you are Consider

You didn't really answer any questions about you parents background.

Are they a part of the Southern Baptists Denomination?

Do they believe homosexuality is immoral?

Do they believe abortion is immoral?

Do they lean politically on the conservative side on these issues?

Quote: You assume too much and it makes you look like an ignorant ass.

I assume based on whatever information is provided to me, but these assumptions are provisional and open to revision, when more information becomes available to me.

Except you don't revise your ignorance when confronted with it.

And no, I didn't explicitly answer those questions, because I don't have explicit answer for you. I've already told you that our views are not incongruent (mine and my parents).

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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11-10-2015, 09:32 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 09:29 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You didn't really answer any questions about you parents background.

Are they a part of the Southern Baptists Denomination?

Do they believe homosexuality is immoral?

Do they believe abortion is immoral?

Do they lean politically on the conservative side on these issues?


I assume based on whatever information is provided to me, but these assumptions are provisional and open to revision, when more information becomes available to me.

Except you don't revise your ignorance when confronted with it.

And no, I didn't explicitly answer those questions, because I don't have explicit answer for you. I've already told you that our views are not incongruent (mine and my parents).

You mean you don't know if they believe homosexuality or abortion is immoral?

Far as I know you don't think they're immoral, is this to say your parent's don't either?

Are they members of a Southern Baptist Denomination?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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