"I was a christian", theist argument.
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11-10-2015, 02:09 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 02:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 01:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  It doesn't require a conspiracy. People make shit up all the time to increase their appearance of importance, or self worth, or because it gives them a warm feeling.

So Paul made up his encounters with his disciples, and his brother James, along with the disputes he had with them?

I haven't claimed that he did. It is simply that his account is not corroborated by anything.

Quote:And Jesus never had a brother named James, because supposedly Jesus didn't exist? Did Paul not only make up encountering his brother, did he also make up his brother? Or was this non-existence James also floating around at the same time, that even Josephus ends up writing about it, regarding his death?

You miss the point. There is no evidence of the truth of Paul's assertions.
There is no testimony of the character of Paul other than his own (or attributed) writings which paint him as a very unpleasant person - arrogant, self-righteous, misogynistic.

There is only textual criticism.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-10-2015, 02:15 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2015 02:19 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 02:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 02:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So Paul made up his encounters with his disciples, and his brother James, along with the disputes he had with them?

I haven't claimed that he did. It is simply that his account is not corroborated by anything.

Quote:And Jesus never had a brother named James, because supposedly Jesus didn't exist? Did Paul not only make up encountering his brother, did he also make up his brother? Or was this non-existence James also floating around at the same time, that even Josephus ends up writing about it, regarding his death?

You miss the point. There is no evidence of the truth of Paul's assertions.
There is no testimony of the character of Paul other than his own (or attributed) writings which paint him as a very unpleasant person - arrogant, self-righteous, misogynistic.

There is only textual criticism.

So you think we should hold off on drawing a conclusion one way or the other. That a conclusion that he made up the encounter with James and the Disciples, and that he invented James all together, is just as reasonable, as Jesus the failed messiah claimant existing, and having a brother named James?

Both explanations have equal explanatory power huh?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-10-2015, 02:19 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 02:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 02:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  I haven't claimed that he did. It is simply that his account is not corroborated by anything.


You miss the point. There is no evidence of the truth of Paul's assertions.
There is no testimony of the character of Paul other than his own (or attributed) writings which paint him as a very unpleasant person - arrogant, self-righteous, misogynistic.

There is only textual criticism.

So you think we should hold off on drawing a conclusion one way or the other. That a conclusion that he made up the encounter with James and the Disciples, and that he invented James all together, is just as reasonable, as Jesus the failed messiah claiming existing, and having a brother named James?

Both explanations have equal explanatory power huh?

You're too blinded by faith to see the idiocy in your replies. Facepalm

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11-10-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 02:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 02:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  I haven't claimed that he did. It is simply that his account is not corroborated by anything.


You miss the point. There is no evidence of the truth of Paul's assertions.
There is no testimony of the character of Paul other than his own (or attributed) writings which paint him as a very unpleasant person - arrogant, self-righteous, misogynistic.

There is only textual criticism.

So you think we should hold off on drawing a conclusion one way or the other. That a conclusion that he made up the encounter with James and the Disciples, and that he invented James all together, is just as reasonable, as Jesus actually existing, and having a brother named James?

Both explanations have equal explanatory power huh?

Please stop assuming what others' positions are.

There is no corroborating evidence of Paul's account. There is no reason to believe it.

"Both explanations"? What both is that? Consider

There is no need to invent James - he could make up an encounter without making up James.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-10-2015, 02:33 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 02:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no need to invent James - he could make up an encounter without making up James.

If Jesus was non-historical he wouldn't have a brother. If Jesus did not exist, than James the brother of Jesus would also have to been made up, not just the encounter with him. And in fact one the made it all the way to Josephus who wrote of James's death, while noting that he was the brother of Jesus.

Is this detail explained better by a historical Jesus, or a non-histrocial one?

Quote:Please stop assuming what others' positions are.

You don't have a position, you just have nonsense. You raise points that you can't even think through.

Quote:Both explanations"? What both is that? Consider

Explanations of a non-existence Jesus, and explanations of a historical one. Is the claim that James the brother of Jesus was a fictional character, just as reasonable as one in which he was actual historical person. Does one explanations explain the writing of Josephus and Paul better than the other? Or do they both posses the same explanatory capacity?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-10-2015, 02:37 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 02:19 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're too blinded by faith to see the idiocy in your replies. Facepalm

You're too blinded by your hatred towards anything Christian, that you can't even see when you're borrowing from the playbook of creationist, and ID proponents.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-10-2015, 02:37 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 02:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 02:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no need to invent James - he could make up an encounter without making up James.

If Jesus was non-historical he wouldn't have a brother. If Jesus did not exist, than James the brother of Jesus would also have to been made up, not just the encounter with him. And in fact one the made it all the way to Josephus who wrote of James's death, while noting that he was the brother of Jesus.

Is this detail explained better by a historical Jesus, or a non-histrocial one?

Quote:Please stop assuming what others' positions are.

You don't have a position, you just have nonsense. You raise points that you can't even think through.

Quote:Both explanations"? What both is that? Consider

Explanations of a non-existence Jesus, and explanations of a historical one. Is the claim that James the brother of Jesus was a fictional character, just as reasonable as one in which he was actual historical person. Does one explanations explain the writing of Josephus and Paul better than the other? Or do they both posses the same explanatory capacity?

Facepalm

There are a lot of people convinced they've been abducted by aliens. And not all of them are necessarily crazy.

Person makes claim. No evidence to corroborate claim other than fantastical story. Claim's burden of proof unmet, claim rejected.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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11-10-2015, 02:44 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 02:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 02:19 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're too blinded by faith to see the idiocy in your replies. Facepalm

You're too blinded by your hatred towards anything Christian, that you can't even see when you're borrowing from the playbook of creationist, and ID proponents.

Yeah Drinking Beverage sure

Your comparison is bad and you should feel bad.

You're equating stories of a character with the plethora of evidence for evolution and call me the blinded one? Laugh out load that's funny

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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11-10-2015, 02:45 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 02:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 01:54 PM)Aoi Magi Wrote:  ...Or because it's profitable

That's a good motive right. The early Christians, made up a Jewish messiah whole cloth, trying to pass him off as historical person, profiting and getting away with it for 2000 years, until some atheists on the internet figured it out, like they figured out the Rothschild banking conspiracy, and creationist figured out that dinosaurs bones are really just reconfigured chicken bones.

This is it was passes for skepticism, and rational thinking huh?
Hmm, let's see
I am a would be cult leader,
so it'd be really bad for me to add some historical credence to my claims, right?
Also if I make the claims myself I'll have to back them up myself, but I should never rely on a dead scapegoat and play his messenger instead.
.....
....
What, people still don't believe me, well I'll just add a "murder all non-believers" clause and pretend atheists/non-believers don't exist.

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11-10-2015, 02:46 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(11-10-2015 02:45 PM)Aoi Magi Wrote:  
(11-10-2015 02:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  That's a good motive right. The early Christians, made up a Jewish messiah whole cloth, trying to pass him off as historical person, profiting and getting away with it for 2000 years, until some atheists on the internet figured it out, like they figured out the Rothschild banking conspiracy, and creationist figured out that dinosaurs bones are really just reconfigured chicken bones.

This is it was passes for skepticism, and rational thinking huh?
Hmm, let's see
I am a would be cult leader,
so it'd be really bad for me to add some historical credence to my claims, right?
Also if I make the claims myself I'll have to back them up myself, but I should never rely on a dead scapegoat and play his messenger instead.
.....
....
What, people still don't believe me, well I'll just add a "murder all non-believers" clause and pretend atheists/non-believers don't exist.

Don't forget your 10%...I mean, god's 10% Wink

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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