"I was a christian", theist argument.
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13-10-2015, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2015 09:42 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(13-10-2015 09:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 08:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I've already provided you a brief summary of those conclusions:

That "Jesus of the NT, is based on an actual historical person, who was a jewish apocalyptic preacher, cult leader, and failed messiah claimant, who went around preaching about the Kingdom of God, who was crucified by the Romans under Pilate, who had a brother named James, and had disciples, who was the source of variety of sayings, and parables attributed to him, who acquired a large following after his death."

So you have no opinion on these conclusions? Can't say whether or not it's based on evidence?

I assume you are trying to summarize Bart Ehrman's conclusions.
1) I don't trust your skills to summarize anyone's argument
2) I have not read Bart Ehrman's work, so I don't know what he bases those conclusions on
3) you've shifted the goal posts from asking about my opinion on Jesus (mythical figure vs historical dude named Yeshua) to asking about my opinions on a historian's conclusions.


Your dishonesty and breadth of logical fallacy knows no bounds

My question pertain to your accusations of strawmanning, and you're claims of what isn't evidence.

In regards to Erhman, or any Historian for that matter, it's less about what their conclusions are, and more so what evidence they are being based on.

While you pleaded ignorance in regards to Ehrman's view, do you also plead ignorance, on the early sources commonly used by historians to draw their conclusions? And whether or not those sources constitute as evidence or not? Source like the NT writings, early Christian writings, writings of non-contemporary historians, etc..?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-10-2015, 09:42 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(13-10-2015 09:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 09:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I assume you are trying to summarize Bart Ehrman's conclusions.
1) I don't trust your skills to summarize anyone's argument
2) I have not read Bart Ehrman's work, so I don't know what he bases those conclusions on
3) you've shifted the goal posts from asking about my opinion on Jesus (mythical figure vs historical dude named Yeshua) to asking about my opinions on a historian's conclusions.


Your dishonesty and breadth of logical fallacy knows no bounds

My question pertain to your accusations of strawmanning, and you're claims of what isn't evidence.

In regards to Erhman, or any Historian for that matter, it matter less what their conclusions are, and more so what evidence they are being based on.

While you pleaded ignorance in regards to Ehrman's view, do you also plead ignorance, on the early sources commonly used by historians to draw their conclusions? And whether or not those sources constitute as evidence or not? Source like the NT writings, early Christian writings, writings of non-contemporary historians, etc..?

You're a dumbass. You don't accept the answer I give you and then continue to shift the goal posts.

Here, I'll reiterate a question I have asked you (since I have spent an inordinate amount of time answering yours): "What do you think it proves if a person named Yeshua existed between 0-35 CE? Do you believe that validates any of the NT stories or any claims from Paul?"

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13-10-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
Just to give a quick list of every time I have answered your questions regarding your historical Yeshua and/or mythical Jesus (and I omitted any responses in this thread specifically from me):

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868029

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868030

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868065

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868056

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868047

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868042

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868088

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868104

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868179

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868805

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868792

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868824

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid868810

And here is one from AOI making the same point I have made to you:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid875954

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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13-10-2015, 10:13 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(13-10-2015 09:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Here, I'll reiterate a question I have asked you (since I have spent an inordinate amount of time answering yours): "What do you think it proves if a person named Yeshua existed between 0-35 CE? Do you believe that validates any of the NT stories or any claims from Paul?"

Which claims? You mean the supernatural ones? Claims of Jesus being the messiah, the the Son of God, being born of a virgin, resurrecting, walking on water, and variety of other supernatural attributes? Or course not. Just like acknowledging that the sources regarding Gautama Buddha confirm that he was an actual historical person, doesn't validate any of the supernatural attributes associated with him.

My points have been primarily concerned with your idiotic and contradictory beliefs on what constitutes as evidence, and what doesn't, and not in regards to the validity of Christianity, or supernatural events.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-10-2015, 10:14 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(13-10-2015 10:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 09:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Here, I'll reiterate a question I have asked you (since I have spent an inordinate amount of time answering yours): "What do you think it proves if a person named Yeshua existed between 0-35 CE? Do you believe that validates any of the NT stories or any claims from Paul?"

Which claims? You mean the supernatural ones? Claims of Jesus being the messiah, the the Son of God, being born of a virgin, resurrecting, walking on water, and variety of other supernatural attributes? Or course not. Just like acknowledging that the sources regarding Gautama Buddha confirm that he was an actual historical person, doesn't validate any of the supernatural attributes associated with him.

My points have been primarily concerned with your idiotic beliefs on what constitutes as evidence, and what doesn't, and not in regards to the validity of Christianity, or supernatural events.

"Which claims? You mean the supernatural ones? Claims of Jesus being the messiah, the the Son of God, being born of a virgin, resurrecting, walking on water, and variety of other supernatural attributes?"

Any and all NT claims and claims from Paul. That is why I asked "What do you think it proves if a person named Yeshua existed between 0-35 CE? Do you believe that validates any of the NT stories or any claims from Paul?"

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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13-10-2015, 10:15 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(13-10-2015 10:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 09:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Here, I'll reiterate a question I have asked you (since I have spent an inordinate amount of time answering yours): "What do you think it proves if a person named Yeshua existed between 0-35 CE? Do you believe that validates any of the NT stories or any claims from Paul?"

Which claims? You mean the supernatural ones? Claims of Jesus being the messiah, the the Son of God, being born of a virgin, resurrecting, walking on water, and variety of other supernatural attributes? Or course not. Just like acknowledging that the sources regarding Gautama Buddha confirm that he was an actual historical person, doesn't validate any of the supernatural attributes associated with him.

My points have been primarily concerned with your idiotic beliefs on what constitutes as evidence, and what doesn't, and not in regards to the validity of Christianity, or supernatural events.

"Or(sic) course not."

But if you actually believe that it doesn't corroborate the claims made about him, then it is an irrelevant belief. A person existed. A series of fictions were written. You (seem) to admit the stories have no validity even if based on a real person. So the stories are useless fictions.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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13-10-2015, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2015 11:00 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(13-10-2015 10:15 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Or(sic) course not."

But if you actually believe that it doesn't corroborate the claims made about him, then it is an irrelevant belief. A person existed. A series of fictions were written. You (seem) to admit the stories have no validity even if based on a real person. So the stories are useless fictions.

The only thing that's relevant here is what constitutes as evidence and what doesn't. And that your criteria for what does and doesn't is contradictory.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-10-2015, 11:09 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(13-10-2015 10:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 10:15 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Or(sic) course not."

But if you actually believe that it doesn't corroborate the claims made about him, then it is an irrelevant belief. A person existed. A series of fictions were written. You (seem) to admit the stories have no validity even if based on a real person. So the stories are useless fictions.

The only thing that's relevant here is what constitutes as evidence and what doesn't. And that your criteria for what does and doesn't is contradictory.

Do what? What the fuck are you talking about? Evidence is something that is proof positive for a claim that is independently verifiable, discoverable, and is demonstrably linked to the conclusions drawn from it and it must be falsifiable (which is to say that one could test its connection to the conclusion).

Going to continue to ignore the questions posed to you? Do you think only you have valid questions?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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13-10-2015, 11:19 AM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2015 11:25 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(13-10-2015 11:09 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Do what? What the fuck are you talking about? Evidence is something that is proof positive for a claim that is independently verifiable, discoverable, and is demonstrably linked to the conclusions drawn from it and it must be falsifiable (which is to say that one could test its connection to the conclusion).

So the question get's asked again, are the early sources commonly used by historians to draw their conclusions regarding a historical Jesus, like the NT writings, early Christian writings, writings of non-contemporary historians, etc... do these sources constitute as evidence or not?

Quote:Going to continue to ignore the questions posed to you? Do you think only you have valid questions?

Was there a question in your previous post that I missed? Because I don't see it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-10-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(13-10-2015 11:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 11:09 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Do what? What the fuck are you talking about? Evidence is something that is proof positive for a claim that is independently verifiable, discoverable, and is demonstrably linked to the conclusions drawn from it and it must be falsifiable (which is to say that one could test its connection to the conclusion).

So the question get's asked again, are the early sources commonly used by historians to draw their conclusions regarding a historical Jesus, like the NT writings, early Christian writings, writings of non-contemporary historians, etc... do these sources constitute as evidence or not?

Quote:Going to continue to ignore the questions posed to you? Do you think only you have valid questions?

Was there a question in your previous post that I missed? Because I don't see it.

"So the question get's asked again, are the early sources commonly used by historians to draw their conclusions regarding a historical Jesus, like the NT writings, early Christian writings, writings of non-contemporary historians, etc... do these sources constitute as evidence or not?"

Of what?
"a historical Jesus"
That a guy named Yeshua existed? I already answered that.

"like the NT writings"
NT writings = claims about Jesus, not evidence of a Yeshua. In the same way that a movie about a character named Leather-face doesn't prove Leather-face existed nor would it prove that there was a historical figure upon which parts of the fiction were based (Ed Gein sewing human flesh into different patterns).

"early Christian writings"
Once again, the early Christian writings are all post-Jesus. So no, they aren't evidence of Jesus. Only a demonstration that some people believe bullshit.

"writings of non-contemporary historians"
No. Non-contemparies writing stories from hearsay, aren't evidence a person existed. For instance, ever heard of Ivan Renko? People will believe any old bullshit if they think it will make people pay attention to them. Even in the age of information where the truth is but a click away if you're intelligent enough to validate your sources.

"Was there a question in your previous post that I missed? Because I don't see it."

This post: Any and all NT claims and claims from Paul. That is why I asked "What do you think it proves if a person named Yeshua existed between 0-35 CE? Do you believe that validates any of the NT stories or any claims from Paul?"

that was in response to your dodge of that question in a previous post: "Which claims? You mean the supernatural ones? Claims of Jesus being the messiah, the the Son of God, being born of a virgin, resurrecting, walking on water, and variety of other supernatural attributes?"

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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