"I was a christian", theist argument.
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07-10-2015, 09:35 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(07-10-2015 09:32 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 08:59 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  My perspective is the vast majority of believers know little to nothing about their faith.

I refuse to believe someone can have a decent level of knowledge of the absolute fiction called religion and then dismiss that knowledge and embrace the delusion anyway.

Do you refuse to believe without faith? Tongue

I agree with the first bit; the second bit reads as faith based. I think you just haven't met a delusion that's as tasty as the Gwynnies, like these guys...

Quote:What clients thought

At Interact Entertainment Group, employees noticed that Higher Source staffers were "strict in diet and dress." But they showed "a good sense of humor, and they were exceptionally smart," said Lili Ungar, a spokeswoman for the Beverly Hills company.

Big Grin

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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07-10-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
I think every post in this thread has hit the highlights of the fallacies in this argument.

The accuser is attempting to redefine what is a christian is post-hoc. I am willing to bet that if these two had spoken when both were christians, the theist would have never accused the other of not being a true christian. Why? because in fact he WAS a christian to begin with.

If we operate by "their" definition of a christian then NO person ever claiming christianity is a true christian because they may, at any time, apostatize and therefore would have never been a christian. The definition of "Christian" says nothing about what a person does in the future, such as doubting or abandoning the religion. It only applies to the present state of being.

True christian vs. not a true christian is a non-glib, pointless argument.You either a) can determine a method of discovering if one is a true christian or b) you can't.

When someone makes the accusatory claim that someone else was never a true christian their bottom line argument is that once one accepts Jesus as their savior they are not able to stop believing because a true believer wouldn't stop believing. (ugh that's a word salad!) However, this presents a major conundrum. It completely disregards free will that they claim god has given. If you're not allowed to stop believing then god can't honor your free will. Christians must be allowed to stop believing therefore making apostasy possible.

**Crickets** -- God
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07-10-2015, 10:56 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(06-10-2015 11:36 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  During this debate, the christian said that atheist where never true christians, because they really didn't had a relationship with god.

That's very common. It's handy for the Christian, because it gives them a convenient way to dismiss everything the other person says, without consideration. This is pretty much the same as the "lies from the Deceiver" argument. You can completely shred their argument, and they can simply scoff, wave their hand, and declare that you "just don't understand it" because you were never truly saved.

On a side note, it's hilarious to watch two Christians pull this on each other at the same time.

My advice if you run into this argument is either to walk away, or tell them that they don't get what you're saying because they aren't truly using logic and reason.


(06-10-2015 11:36 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  Alse said that if they say they had one but later changed their minds it means that they accept god is real.

This is wrong because they're equivocating belief in an invisible entity with the relationship with that entity. It doesn't have to be real for the person to consider that they have a relationship. It's entirely possible for someone to have a relationship under false pretenses only to then have the relationship fall apart when the person learns of the lie. The former relationship doesn't somehow magically negate the lie.

That'd be like saying "I couldn't have cheated on you, because you're married to me, and you wouldn't be married to me if I cheated on you". I mean, what the crap?


(06-10-2015 11:36 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  What more can you say against this argument?

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.
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07-10-2015, 11:00 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2015 11:03 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(06-10-2015 11:36 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  Recently I saw this video (you can disable annotations if you wish) where there's a debate between a christian and an atheist. During this debate, the christian said that atheist where never true christians, because they really didn't had a relationship with god. Alse said that if they say they had one but later changed their minds it means that they accept god is real.

Though it is a no true scotsman fallacy, I think there is some kernel of truth to it. In fact atheists tend to suggest something along the lines of this, when encountering some theist who claimed to have been an atheist previously.

Though they might not doubt the person lacked a belief in God, just like a theist might not doubt that the atheist who was once a christian believed in God, they'd say something that distinguishes their former lack of belief, or belief from their own. Like their disbelief wasn't evidence based, it wasn't a product of a lengthy reflection, or logical considerations, perhaps a lazy disbelief, unlike their own thoughtful variety. While the theist will say they didn't have a certain sort of intimacy with their faith, which they possess, etc....

We don't see in a person's former atheism, of theism, a spitting image of ourselves. We never seem inclined to say that he was just like me, than one day believed, or one day didn't. And I think there's some truth to this. Though I think the explanations people offer for these distinctions, are never really hit the mark. Those folks like yourself never become theist, and those folks like myself never become atheists. The reasons for which are never all that clear, but the dictum seems to hold true.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-10-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
Seeking the truth, I have a question for you. Have evangelical missionaries descended on Puerto Rico in droves? Just asking since the title of the video is in Spanish and the subtitles makes me wonder if it is evangelicals targeting people in Puerto Rico like they are all over Latin America.
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07-10-2015, 11:31 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2015 11:35 AM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(07-10-2015 11:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 11:36 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  Recently I saw this video (you can disable annotations if you wish) where there's a debate between a christian and an atheist. During this debate, the christian said that atheist where never true christians, because they really didn't had a relationship with god. Alse said that if they say they had one but later changed their minds it means that they accept god is real.

Though it is a no true scotsman fallacy, I think there is some kernel of truth to it. In fact atheists tend to suggest something along the lines of this, when encountering some theist who claimed to have been an atheist previously.

Though they might not doubt the person lacked a belief in God, just like a theist might not doubt that the atheist who was once a christian believed in God, they'd say something that distinguishes their former lack of belief, or belief from their own. Like their disbelief wasn't evidence based, it wasn't a product of a lengthy reflection, or logical considerations, perhaps a lazy disbelief, unlike their own thoughtful variety. While the theist will say they didn't have a certain sort of intimacy with their faith, which they possess, etc....

We don't see in a person's former atheism, of theism, a spitting image of ourselves. We never seem inclined to say that he was just like me, than one day believed, or one day didn't. And I think there's some truth to this. Though I think the explanations people offer for these distinctions, are never really hit the mark. Those folks like yourself never become theist, and those folks like myself never become atheists. The reasons for which are never all that clear, but the dictum seems to hold true.

Oddly enough, I do sorta empathize with you on this.

I see the difference as this, there are people as children exposed to religion on at the very least a weekly basis, knew other religions existed and other "favors" of christianianty existed and concluded it was all crap.

And then there are the people who (much like Kirk Cameron) never gave religion any consideration and later became steadfast believers....

Technically the latter group were "atheist," but only until they felt something better came along -- and I have hard time really calling them atheist...since its kinda like saying before I saw a map, i didnt know Egypt was in Africa.

There are Christian types who call out other Christian or religions as not being true believers. There are some who believe everyone goes to heaven...no Christ needed....others believe it differently. There are others who believe one must keep all the Jewish laws. While still other Christians believe they don't.

Just a side note: I didn't want to be an atheist.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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07-10-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(07-10-2015 11:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 11:36 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  Recently I saw this video (you can disable annotations if you wish) where there's a debate between a christian and an atheist. During this debate, the christian said that atheist where never true christians, because they really didn't had a relationship with god. Alse said that if they say they had one but later changed their minds it means that they accept god is real.
Though it is a no true scotsman fallacy, I think there is some kernel of truth to it. In fact atheists tend to suggest something along the lines of this, when encountering some theist who claimed to have been an atheist previously.

Though they might not doubt the person lacked a belief in God, just like a theist might not doubt that the atheist who was once a christian believed in God, they'd say something that distinguishes their former lack of belief, or belief from their own. Like their disbelief wasn't evidence based, it wasn't a product of a lengthy reflection, or logical considerations, perhaps a lazy disbelief, unlike their own thoughtful variety. While the theist will say they didn't have a certain sort of intimacy with their faith, which they possess, etc....


I save that accusation for the theists who are trying to hawk stuff to fellow believers and talk about their former 'atheism' in a way that we've never seen any other self identified atheist ever talk about it (Kirk Cameron, Lee Strobel, etc.). When a current Christian trying to sell a book uses his former 'atheism' as a selling point for themselves and their book, and talk about their former 'atheism' the same way Christians talk about their faith; it seems far more like a lie and a cynical exploitation of a marketing scheme more than anything honest.

Still, when they claim they 'had faith' in science and evolution (Cameron), even then they clearly weren't atheists for the same reasons most of us share. I don't think there is a single person here that would claim to 'have faith' that evolution is true. Because we don't need faith, evolution is evidently true.

So it seems like only theistic charlatans trying to sell bullshit ever claim to be former atheists, and then talk about it is ways that atheists never talk about their lack of belief. Which makes sense if they're just telling a lie to sell something to fellow credulous believers.


(07-10-2015 11:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  We don't see in a person's former atheism, of theism, a spitting image of ourselves. We never seem inclined to say that he was just like me, than one day believed, or one day didn't. And I think there's some truth to this. Though I think the explanations people offer for these distinctions, are never really hit the mark. Those folks like yourself never become theist, and those folks like myself never become atheists. The reasons for which are never all that clear, but the dictum seems to hold true.


What is unclear? Most people build their beliefs upon evidence, but not everyone knows what constitutes good evidence. Not everyone is aware that hearsay is terrible evidence, and even less care enough to educate themselves in the evaluation of evidence. I don't doubt that many, if not most, theists think their belief is justified by evidence. I only posit that most all of them don't know what good evidence is (vast majority), do and yet compartmentalize their faith (Dr. Ken Miller, Nobel laureate Francis Collins), or are honest in their faith sans evidence (our own KingsChosen).

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07-10-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(07-10-2015 11:31 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 11:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Though it is a no true scotsman fallacy, I think there is some kernel of truth to it. In fact atheists tend to suggest something along the lines of this, when encountering some theist who claimed to have been an atheist previously.

Though they might not doubt the person lacked a belief in God, just like a theist might not doubt that the atheist who was once a christian believed in God, they'd say something that distinguishes their former lack of belief, or belief from their own. Like their disbelief wasn't evidence based, it wasn't a product of a lengthy reflection, or logical considerations, perhaps a lazy disbelief, unlike their own thoughtful variety. While the theist will say they didn't have a certain sort of intimacy with their faith, which they possess, etc....

We don't see in a person's former atheism, of theism, a spitting image of ourselves. We never seem inclined to say that he was just like me, than one day believed, or one day didn't. And I think there's some truth to this. Though I think the explanations people offer for these distinctions, are never really hit the mark. Those folks like yourself never become theist, and those folks like myself never become atheists. The reasons for which are never all that clear, but the dictum seems to hold true.

Oddly enough, I do sorta empathize with you on this.

I see the difference as this, there are people as children exposed to religion on at the very least a weekly basis, knew other religions existed and other "favors" of christianianty existed and concluded it was all crap.

And then there are the people who (much like Kirk Cameron) never gave religion any consideration and later became steadfast believers....

Technically the latter group were "atheist," but only until they felt something better came along -- and I have hard time really calling them atheist...since its kinda like saying before I saw a map, i didnt know Egypt was in Africa.

That's true, but it's much as goodwithoutgod said upthread. There are many people who don't really think about what they're claiming to believe.

That isn't, however, what the OP was referring to - which was rather, telling someone to their face that their own experiences abour own beliefs aren't real and don't count, in order to avoid the unpleasant consequences of it.

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07-10-2015, 11:47 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
I had a very similar conversation with my wife the other day. I forgot how we got on the subject but we were talking about Mormons and whether or not they're Christians. We have a friend that is Mormon, and I've had and heard conversations with a number of them to know that the majority of them consider themselves to be Christians.

In my Mormon friends words "Our church is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If that doesn't count for Christian I don't know what dose."

My wife very adamant this subject said "Mormon aren't Christians they're a cult."

I agreed with her, but added all religions are cults. Or at least started as one.

I asked her "What makes a Christian a Christian?"

"You have to believe in God."

Check.

"You have to read the Bible."

Check

" You have to accept Jesus as your lord and Savoir."

Three for three sweetie.

She constantly is accusing me of wanting to be a Mormon. Mostly because one day someone left a Book of Mormon on the hood of my car and I decided to read it instead of throwing it away. I've also been also thinking of getting a Quran, and Bhagwad Gita. But being poor I've stuck with the on-line versions.

I have to constantly reminded her that I don't adhere to any religion, or God based belief.

Anyway! The subject was sent to bed. She still didn't want to accept it. And we went back to watching our show.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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07-10-2015, 11:55 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(07-10-2015 11:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 11:31 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Oddly enough, I do sorta empathize with you on this.

I see the difference as this, there are people as children exposed to religion on at the very least a weekly basis, knew other religions existed and other "favors" of christianianty existed and concluded it was all crap.

And then there are the people who (much like Kirk Cameron) never gave religion any consideration and later became steadfast believers....

Technically the latter group were "atheist," but only until they felt something better came along -- and I have hard time really calling them atheist...since its kinda like saying before I saw a map, i didnt know Egypt was in Africa.

That's true, but it's much as goodwithoutgod said upthread. There are many people who don't really think about what they're claiming to believe.

That isn't, however, what the OP was referring to - which was rather, telling someone to their face that their own experiences abour own beliefs aren't real and don't count, in order to avoid the unpleasant consequences of it.

Totally agree.

I might have liked to see the whole thing, not just the cherry picked "gotcha" because it seemed to be some sort of debate.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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