"I was a christian", theist argument.
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14-10-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
Here, let's put this into a larger context.

A historical Yeshua existed (we'll assume this for the sake of argument is someone who serves as a loose basis for the NT). This means ____________ about Christianity/theism?

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14-10-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 11:01 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Oh! Right! Thumbsup

So, there was some guy named 'Jesus' and he lived some where's around the place at that time.

A guy named Jesus, who was failed messiah claimant, and jewish apocalyptical preacher, and cult leader, who went around preaching about the kingdom of God, who was the source of variety of parables and sayings, attributed to him in the Gospels, who had a brother named James, and disciples, who met his untimely death by the Romans, under the hand of Pilate. Who was followers soon after his death started claiming was resurrected, and who served as the bases for the gospels narratives, and the NT writings, and the early Christian movement.

His unexpected death led his followers to read back into the OT, that he was part of the messianic prophecies. They desperately attempted to fit any glaring inconsistencies with aspects of his life, into these OT expectations, such as constructing a narratives such as he was born in Bethlehem, but had to flee the wrath of Herod, to reconcile the fact that he was Nazareth, etc... Tying his untimely death to the suffering servant passages in Isaiah, etc...

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-10-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 11:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 11:01 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Oh! Right! Thumbsup

So, there was some guy named 'Jesus' and he lived some where's around the place at that time.

A guy named Jesus, who was failed messiah claimant, and jewish apocalyptical preacher, and cult leader, who went around preaching about the kingdom of God, who was the source of variety of parables and sayings, attributed to him in the Gospels, who had a brother named James, and disciples, who met his untimely death by the Romans, under the hand of Pilate. Who was followers soon after his death started claiming was resurrected, and who served as the bases for the gospels narratives, and the NT writings, and the early Christian movement.

His unexpected death led his followers to read back into the OT, that he was part of the messianic prophecies. They desperately attempted to fit any glaring inconsistencies with aspects of his life, into these OT expectations, such as constructing a narratives such as he was born in Bethlehem, but had to flee the wrath of Herod, to reconcile the fact that he was Nazareth, etc...

Ergo, a fictional character (regardless of whether or not an actual human named "Yeshua" existed)

Here, let's put this into a larger context.

A historical Yeshua existed (we'll assume this for the sake of argument is someone who serves as a loose basis for the NT). This means ____________ about Christianity/theism?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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14-10-2015, 11:25 AM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2015 11:28 AM by Grasshopper.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 10:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The half-baked argument being composed by folks like Chas, and TBD, no body makes them, not even those who write books in support of a non-historicity make them. They at least take the same sources and try and formulate an alternative explanation. But for CHAS, and TBD their thoughts are not even complete here, they’re just scatterbrained.

Tomasia says Chas is scatterbrained.

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14-10-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 11:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This means ____________ about Christianity/theism?

It says nothing about the validity of Christianity or Theism.

And that's why it makes it all the more interesting for me when atheists such as yourself are willing to border on the incredulous in defense of non-historicity. It's not particularly hard to understand why creationist do so, because they are trying to preserve their valued religious beliefs.

But what are you trying so hard to preserve? Is your resentment that valuable to you?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-10-2015, 11:41 AM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 11:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 11:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This means ____________ about Christianity/theism?

It says nothing about the validity of Christianity or Theism.

And that's why it makes it all the more interesting for me when atheists such as yourself are willing to border on the incredulous in defense of non-historicity. It's not particularly hard to understand why creationist do so, because they are trying to preserve their valued religious beliefs.

But what are you trying so hard to preserve? Is your resentment that valuable to you?

You didn't answer the question Drinking Beverage

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14-10-2015, 12:15 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2015 01:16 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 11:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You didn't answer the question Drinking Beverage

Uhm, it says nothing about the validity of Christianity, or theism. It does say something about how it begun, of Yeshua and communities that emerged from him. And it allows to have a picture of what took place at that period of time, and the origin of the religion that came to be know as Christianity.

Not to mention if we assume a non-historical Jesus, that would suggest that Jesus was already a part of some Jewish expectations of what the Messiah would be, rather than his early followers tried to interpret a historical Yeshua in light of OT messianic prophecies after his death. The fictional Jesus would have been composed by these prophecies, composed by jewish expectations of Messiah. Fictional messiahs don't require a tight squeeze, they can be composed to fit exceptions fluidly, only limited by imagination. It's historical ones, that makes for a tight fit, because you have to deal with pesky and embarrassing facts, like a humiliating death.

The accusation commonly made by Jews and Non-Christians, that Jesus was not a part of Jewish expectations of messiah at the time, would also be false, if we assume a non-historical Jesus. There's implications for the assumptions that Jesus was a non-historical figure, if you think those can be brushed under the rug, they can't. They have to be accounted for, one way or the other, by one explanation, or the other.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-10-2015, 12:59 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
...pop! goes the weasel.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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14-10-2015, 01:43 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 12:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 11:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You didn't answer the question Drinking Beverage

Uhm, it says nothing about the validity of Christianity, or theism. It does say something about how it begun, of Yeshua and communities that emerged from him. And it allows to have a picture of what took place at that period of time, and the origin of the religion that came to be know as Christianity.

Not to mention if we assume a non-historical Jesus, that would suggest that Jesus was already a part of some Jewish expectations of what the Messiah would be, rather than his early followers tried to interpret a historical Yeshua in light of OT messianic prophecies after his death. The fictional Jesus would have been composed by these prophecies, composed by jewish expectations of Messiah. Fictional messiahs don't require a tight squeeze, they can be composed to fit exceptions fluidly, only limited by imagination. It's historical ones, that makes for a tight fit, because you have to deal with pesky and embarrassing facts, like a humiliating death.

The accusation commonly made by Jews and Non-Christians, that Jesus was not a part of Jewish expectations of messiah at the time, would also be false, if we assume a non-historical Jesus. There's implications for the assumptions that Jesus was a non-historical figure, if you think those can be brushed under the rug, they can't. They have to be accounted for, one way or the other, by one explanation, or the other.

I can't even follow this gibberish. You've extrapolated from "a guy named Yeshua was once alive" a series of assumptions about how Christianity began (even though it didn't begin until Paul) and then admit that it doesn't validate any Christian claims (which would include its origins).

Your argument is circularly self-defeating.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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14-10-2015, 02:00 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2015 02:06 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 01:43 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I can't even follow this gibberish. You've extrapolated from "a guy named Yeshua was once alive" ).

Uhm, I'm not sure where you got the just "a guy named Yeshua was once alive" bit from. You responded to a post in which, far more was said then just Yeshua was a common name at the time.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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