"I was a christian", theist argument.
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14-10-2015, 02:41 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 12:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 11:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You didn't answer the question Drinking Beverage

Uhm, it says nothing about the validity of Christianity, or theism. It does say something about how it begun, of Yeshua and communities that emerged from him. And it allows to have a picture of what took place at that period of time, and the origin of the religion that came to be know as Christianity.

Not to mention if we assume a non-historical Jesus, that would suggest that Jesus was already a part of some Jewish expectations of what the Messiah would be, rather than his early followers tried to interpret a historical Yeshua in light of OT messianic prophecies after his death. The fictional Jesus would have been composed by these prophecies, composed by jewish expectations of Messiah. Fictional messiahs don't require a tight squeeze, they can be composed to fit exceptions fluidly, only limited by imagination. It's historical ones, that makes for a tight fit, because you have to deal with pesky and embarrassing facts, like a humiliating death.

The accusation commonly made by Jews and Non-Christians, that Jesus was not a part of Jewish expectations of messiah at the time, would also be false, if we assume a non-historical Jesus. There's implications for the assumptions that Jesus was a non-historical figure, if you think those can be brushed under the rug, they can't. They have to be accounted for, one way or the other, by one explanation, or the other.

Man you should have a discussion with Q since you both write so much, but say so little.

Why does it matter when it is all man made stories, myths and fiction? Joseph Smith was a real person, but much wrote about his significance to Mormonism is crap and lies. There have been hundreds of nut jobs claiming to be prophets, messiahs and gods over the centuries, but who cares when we all know it is all nonsense. Remember we are on an Atheist form - not history.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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14-10-2015, 03:02 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 02:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 01:43 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I can't even follow this gibberish. You've extrapolated from "a guy named Yeshua was once alive" ).

Uhm, I'm not sure where you got the just "a guy named Yeshua was once alive" bit from. You responded to a post in which, far more was said then just Yeshua was a common name at the time.

Like I said, your post is a collection of sentences that seem to be forced together against their will to produce an incoherent rant in which you write much but say little while take a minimal observation (guy named Yeshua lived) and extrapolate from it not only more than it would suggest, but you extrapolate from it that which you already admitted it doesn't validate.

Your head is a clusterfuck of faith-based bullshit as a result of cognitive dissonance.

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14-10-2015, 03:02 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 02:41 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Why does it matter when it is all man made stories, myths and fiction? Joseph Smith was a real person, but much wrote about his significance to Mormonism is crap and lies. There have been hundreds of nut jobs claiming to be prophets, messiahs and gods over the centuries, but who cares when we all know it is all nonsense. Remember we are on an Atheist form - not history.

Well, if someone came in here claiming Joseph Smith wasn't a real person, I might want to hit him over the head too. And the topic for the moment is history, not the validity of theism, or atheism. I've read a variety of book, took a couple courses at secular university on the topic, that when I get to put that to use when the oppurtinity arises to bash the head of the over-confident but embarassingly ignorant, I take full advantage of it.

You might not care for history, but I like it. It's also a means to plod one of my favorite topics: atheists whose thought processes are polluted by their resentment towards religion.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-10-2015, 03:07 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Like I said, your post is a collection of sentences that seem to be forced together against their will to produce an incoherent rant in which you write much but say little while take a minimal observation (guy named Yeshua lived) and extrapolate from it not only more than it would suggest, but you extrapolate from it that which you already admitted it doesn't validate.

Your head is a clusterfuck of faith-based bullshit as a result of cognitive dissonance.

I didn't make a minimal observation, that Yeshua was a common name at the time. In fact you're the only one who keep repeating that. I didn't extrapolate anything from the fact that Yeshua was a common name at that time at all.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-10-2015, 03:08 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:07 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 03:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Like I said, your post is a collection of sentences that seem to be forced together against their will to produce an incoherent rant in which you write much but say little while take a minimal observation (guy named Yeshua lived) and extrapolate from it not only more than it would suggest, but you extrapolate from it that which you already admitted it doesn't validate.

Your head is a clusterfuck of faith-based bullshit as a result of cognitive dissonance.

I didn't make a minimal observation, that Yeshua was a common name at the time. In fact you're the only one who keep repeating that. I didn't extrapolate anything from the fact that Yeshua was a common name at that time at all.

Did I say "a common name at the time" or that a person named Yeshua existed?

Address what I write, not what you wish I had written.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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14-10-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:08 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Did I say "a common name at the time" or that a person named Yeshua existed?

Address what I write, not what you wish I had written.

Oh so you mean more than that when you say "a person named Yeshua existed"?

Complete your half-baked cryptic thought then.

What do you mean by a person named Yeshua existed, other than Yeshua was a common name at the time, therefore all sorts of Jewish men named Yeshua existed in that period?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-10-2015, 03:18 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 03:08 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Did I say "a common name at the time" or that a person named Yeshua existed?

Address what I write, not what you wish I had written.

Oh so you mean more than that when you say "a person named Yeshua existed"?

Complete your half-baked cryptic thought then.

What do you mean by a person named Yeshua existed, other than Yeshua was a common name at the time, therefore all sorts of Jewish men named Yeshua existed in that period?

I mean exactly what I said.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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14-10-2015, 03:19 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 07:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 06:44 AM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:Exactly. It is an inference drawn from weak (at best) evidence. The rest is conjecture.

If it was that weak, then you should be able to draw an alternative explanation, or inference of a non-historical Jesus, that would be stronger or at least as strong. If all of it is more strongly supported in the direction of one inference over the other, we wouldn’t be talking about something weak. If it was weak evidence, that we should be able to explain all of it just as well with a non-historical explanation, as a historical one. If one stretches credulity far more so than the other, then we have a problem.

If the evidence was weak as you as say, you should be able to draw a competing explanation of non-historical Jesus, that is just as compelling. But you haven’t, and you likely’t can’t either.

[quote]But there is direct observational evidence of change in species. Read a book.

There is compelling physical evidence that supports other evidence and supports a theory that is consistent and for which there is no counter-evidence.

We have direct observation of small scale changes in species. Sort of like we have a first person account of someone who met Jesus’s brother, and disciples. Creationist will claim we can’t draw a larger inference from that this supports a larger account in regards to the vast diversity and complexity of life. The evidence for evolution is primarily circumstantial. Since we can’t directly observe millions of years in motion.

The problem both you and the hypothetical creationist here suffers, is the inability to recognize the explanatory capacity of the theory of evolution. That there’ no competing inference or explanation currently on the market, that holds any real candle to it.

Creationist at least try of course, offering what amounts to a competing AiG like explanations, but when it comes to historicity you don’t even try. If you think the evidence is weak, than you should be able to erect a competing explanation, with equal explanatory power, that is just as strong as historicity explanations. If you can’t, then your criticism are meaningless, and amount to nothing more then revealing your inaptitude.

I, and others, have offered competing explanations, you just weren't paying attention.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-10-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 08:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 06:44 AM)Chas Wrote:  There you go again, supposing you know what someone else thinks. You really need to stop that.

I'm drawing a tentative hypothesis based on observational data about your mental states. If we all can be amateur historians, I'm not sure why I can't be an amateur psychologist. People like to tell me why I believe the things I do, diagnosis my own psychology, I don't mind. In fact it makes me curious as to why they draw those conclusions, and whether or not they might be accurate.

I don't suppose I know what you think, I just draw a tentative conclusion, and then gauge whether or not it holds up, upon further investigation, and try to factor in whatever variables, including my own biases whenever I can.

You're not doing a very good job at it. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-10-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 02:41 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Why does it matter when it is all man made stories, myths and fiction? Joseph Smith was a real person, but much wrote about his significance to Mormonism is crap and lies. There have been hundreds of nut jobs claiming to be prophets, messiahs and gods over the centuries, but who cares when we all know it is all nonsense. Remember we are on an Atheist form - not history.

Well, if someone came in here claiming Joseph Smith wasn't a real person, I might want to hit him over the head too. And the topic for the moment is history, not the validity of theism, or atheism. I've read a variety of book, took a couple courses at secular university on the topic, that when I get to put that to use when the oppurtinity arises to bash the head of the over-confident but embarassingly ignorant, I take full advantage of it.

You might not care for history, but I like it. It's also a means to plod one of my favorite topics: atheists whose thought processes are polluted by their resentment towards religion.

It is in no way "polluted" to doubt the existence of people, creatures and places found only in myth. Just because a few folks publish their interpretation does not make a historical claim a fact and accepted by a majority. So. I would not be "polluted" in viewing the accounts of a jesus character just the same as for the characters of Greek Mythology. Stop making the case that the evidence for jesus is overwhelming and indisputable - cuz its not. Nor is it in the same league as the evidence for the evolution of life on Earth.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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