"I was a christian", theist argument.
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14-10-2015, 03:27 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 10:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 10:27 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  From what I can gather Chas, TBD are simply saying that while certainly some one named something like 'Jesus' might (And quite probably did) live about that time BUT (And this is the sticking point, possibly)

Person called 'Jesus' =/= Thing which is personification of deity called 'Jesus'.

See the difference?

*If Chas and TBD aren't saying this, please correct m'self. Blush

You should also gather that I never argued for the deity of Jesus, or the validity of supernatural claims attributed to him. In fact it's for an entirely secular historical account, like the one offered by atheist historians like Bart Ehrman.

It's a question if the early sources, the early Christian movement, etc can be better accounted for a by a non-historical Yeshua, like we might say of Spiderman, that he can be better account for by a non-historical Peter Parker, or better by a historical account.

We have actual evidence for religions being invented, e.g. Mormonism, Islam, cargo cults*, Heaven's Gate, et al.

Christianity is no different.


*Was John Frum an actual person?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-10-2015, 03:27 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I mean exactly what I said.

And all you said was "a guy named Yeshua lived", which means as much as a 9/11 truther, saying September 11th is a date on a calendar.

You can't even expand on what you mean by " a guy named Yeshua lived", particularly when you implied you mean something more than Yeshua was a common name at the time, so a variety of guys lived at the time named Yeshua.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-10-2015, 03:33 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 03:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I mean exactly what I said.

And all you said was "a guy named Yeshua lived", which means as much as a 9/11 truther, saying September 11th is a date on a calendar.

You can't even expand on what you mean by " a guy named Yeshua lived", particularly when you implied you mean something more than Yeshua was a common name at the time, so a variety of guys lived at the time named Yeshua.

You're a fucking moron. Answer the question directly.

How do you go from Yeshua-dude to the character Paul creates that starts the Christian movement? What does Yeshua-dude contribute to the Christian myth?

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14-10-2015, 03:37 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 10:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You should also gather that I never argued for the deity of Jesus, or the validity of supernatural claims attributed to him. In fact it's for an entirely secular historical account, like the one offered by atheist historians like Bart Ehrman.

It's a question if the early sources, the early Christian movement, etc can be better accounted for a by a non-historical Yeshua, like we might say of Spiderman, that he can be better account for by a non-historical Peter Parker, or better by a historical account.

We have actual evidence for religions being invented, e.g. Mormonism, Islam, cargo cults*, Heaven's Gate, et al.

Christianity is no different.


*Was John Frum an actual person?

All hail John Frum!

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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14-10-2015, 03:37 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2015 03:46 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  We have actual evidence for religions being invented, e.g. Mormonism, Islam, cargo cults*, Heaven's Gate, et al.

Christianity is no different.


*Was John Frum an actual person?

Was Marshall Herff Applewhite, Joseph Smith, Mohammed actual people? Was Guatma Buddha an actual person?

Do we have accounts of folks meeting John Frum's brother? Historians writing of his death and execution by local authorities at the time? Do we have a variety of parables and sayings attributed to John Frum? Do we have sketches of his life and history?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-10-2015, 03:44 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How do you go from Yeshua-dude to the character Paul creates that starts the Christian movement? What does Yeshua-dude contribute to the Christian myth?

What? What do you mean the character Paul created? Are you suggesting the Jesus of the Gospels was created by Paul?

Quote:What does Yeshua-dude contribute to the Christian myth?

I wouldn't even where to begin to interpret this question. He contributed the same some sort of shit any historical cult leader contributes to his religion, what Gautama Buddha contributed to Buddhism, what Mohammad contributed to Islam, Confucius, to Confucianism, etc.....

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-10-2015, 03:49 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2015 04:02 PM by TheBeardedDude.)
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:44 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 03:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How do you go from Yeshua-dude to the character Paul creates that starts the Christian movement? What does Yeshua-dude contribute to the Christian myth?

What? What do you mean the character Paul created? Are you suggesting the Jesus of the Gospels was created by Paul?

Quote:What does Yeshua-dude contribute to the Christian myth?

I wouldn't even where to begin to interpret this question. He contributed the same some sort of shit any historical cult leader contributes to his religion, what Gautama Buddha contributed to Buddhism, what Mohammad contributed to Islam, Confucius, to Confucianism, etc.....

I mean exactly what I said. What does it contribute to Paul's character (Jesus) that a person named Yeshua existed a generation before him (Paul)? And a person that he never met nor anyone who ever wrote about Yeshua/Jesus ever met.

And you flat out ignored (red herring) the latter question. What does Yeshua-dude's probable existence contribute to the Christian myth at large that Paul created?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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14-10-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I mean exactly what I said. What does it contribute to Paul's character (Jesus) that a person named Yeshua existed a generation before him (Paul) and a person that he never met (nor anyone who ever wrote about Yeshua/Jesus ever met)?

Uhh, I’m gonna need a clearer translation. I don’t know what you mean by “Paul’s character (Jesus). The only point that I even mentioned Paul, was that he wrote of his encounter with Jesus brother, and disciples, and nothing about Paul’s view of Jesus.

So I’m not sure why you’re introducing this the way you do, as if I’m suppose to know what it is you’re talking about?

Quote:And you flat out ignored (red herring) the latter question. What does Yeshua-dude's probable existence contribute the Christian myth at large that Paul created?

Uhm, this Yeshua-dude’s life, death, and message are the foundations of the Christian Religion. If that’s not an answer to question, than i don’t know what your question is.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-10-2015, 04:11 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 03:44 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 03:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How do you go from Yeshua-dude to the character Paul creates that starts the Christian movement? What does Yeshua-dude contribute to the Christian myth?

What? What do you mean the character Paul created? Are you suggesting the Jesus of the Gospels was created by Paul?

The strong consensus among Biblical scholars is that Paul's Epistles were written before any of the Gospels. It is also considered unlikely by most scholars that either Paul or the anonymous authors of the Gospels ever met or knew the Jesus about whom they were writing.
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14-10-2015, 04:13 PM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(14-10-2015 04:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 03:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I mean exactly what I said. What does it contribute to Paul's character (Jesus) that a person named Yeshua existed a generation before him (Paul) and a person that he never met (nor anyone who ever wrote about Yeshua/Jesus ever met)?

Uhh, I’m gonna need a clearer translation. I don’t know what you mean by “Paul’s character (Jesus). The only point that I even mentioned Paul, was that he wrote of his encounter with Jesus brother, and disciples, and nothing about Paul’s view of Jesus.

So I’m not sure why you’re introducing this the way you do, as if I’m suppose to know what it is you’re talking about?

Quote:And you flat out ignored (red herring) the latter question. What does Yeshua-dude's probable existence contribute the Christian myth at large that Paul created?

Uhm, this Yeshua-dude’s life, death, and message are the foundations of the Christian Religion. If that’s not an answer to question, than i don’t know what your question is.

Non-answers. I mean exactly what I say. What does the existence of a guy named Yeshua (who lived a generation before Paul and whom he nor anyone who ever wrote about him ever met) contribute to the story created by Paul that serves as the foundation of Christianity and the character Jesus?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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