"I was a christian", theist argument.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-10-2015, 08:15 AM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 08:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 07:59 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Avoidance of the issues and questions (yes, Matthew not Mark for that specific story)

It appears you're the one doing the avoiding. I asked you about Paul influence on the Gospel of Mark, can we see traces of Paul influence there? Are you conceding that you're unable to point to any passage or verse in Mark, where you can show some trace of Paul's influence?

Perhaps you think the Matthew verse you highlighted shows Pauline influences, maybe that why your highlighted that verse, since both the writer of Matthew and Paul speak of Holie of Holies and Temple Veil, draw connections between the High Priest, and Jesus? Perhaps your suggesting that the writer of Matthew acquired that connection from Paul? Is that it?

It's like I said, rather than actually trying to learn, you continue to use the same excuses to avoid the issue. Cognitive dissonance. If all you have is to try and accuse me of committing your logical fallacies and failings, then you're so far lost in a world of faith-based bullshit that there's no hope you'll ever learn to think for yourself.

Which is why you're a dishonest player on the forum. You claim to want to learn and when confronted with your ignorance and a chance to dispel it, you double down on your ignorance and blame others for your failings.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2015, 08:28 AM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2015 08:42 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 08:15 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It's like I said, rather than actually trying to learn, you continue to use the same excuses to avoid the issue. Cognitive dissonance. If all you have is to try and accuse me of committing your logical fallacies and failings, then you're so far lost in a world of faith-based bullshit that there's no hope you'll ever learn to think for yourself.

Which is why you're a dishonest player on the forum. You claim to want to learn and when confronted with your ignorance and a chance to dispel it, you double down on your ignorance and blame others for your failings.

lol, you present a series of incomplete thoughts, that might as well be cryptic. And then complain when I try and decipher whatever it is you're actually trying to communicate, typically with a series of follow up questions.

You claimed that Paul's influenced the NT conceptions of Jesus. When asked about the influence of Paul on Mark, you avoid the question at every turn. Refused to comment on whether Paul influenced Mark or not, or if you meant he influenced some of the NT writers but not all.

You then cited a passage in Matthew confusing it with Mark. And even then the connection with Paul was not all that clear, the only connection I can seem to make between Paul and the Matthew passage you highlighted is they both incorporated imagery from the Holy of Holies in their writings. When asked about this, rather than actually responding, you whine about my supposed dishonesty.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2015, 09:24 AM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 08:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 08:15 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It's like I said, rather than actually trying to learn, you continue to use the same excuses to avoid the issue. Cognitive dissonance. If all you have is to try and accuse me of committing your logical fallacies and failings, then you're so far lost in a world of faith-based bullshit that there's no hope you'll ever learn to think for yourself.

Which is why you're a dishonest player on the forum. You claim to want to learn and when confronted with your ignorance and a chance to dispel it, you double down on your ignorance and blame others for your failings.

lol, you present a series of incomplete thoughts, that might as well be cryptic. And then complain when I try and decipher whatever it is you're actually trying to communicate, typically with a series of follow up questions.

You claimed that Paul's influenced the NT conceptions of Jesus. When asked about the influence of Paul on Mark, you avoid the question at every turn. Refused to comment on whether Paul influenced Mark or not, or if you meant he influenced some of the NT writers but not all.

You then cited a passage in Matthew confusing it with Mark. And even then the connection with Paul was not all that clear, the only connection I can seem to make between Paul and the Matthew passage you highlighted is they both incorporated imagery from the Holy of Holies in their writings. When asked about this, rather than actually responding, you whine about my supposed dishonesty.

Educate yourself by actually looking at reality. For instance, look for the answers to the questions I posed instead of avoiding them. Avoid your dishonest attempts to dismiss them and avoid your intuition (driven by cognitive dissonance) to accuse me of your failings.


Or don't. You've made it clear you're not here to learn but preach. Anyone bought your bullshit and lies yet? Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2015, 09:46 AM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2015 09:50 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 09:24 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Educate yourself by actually looking at reality. For instance, look for the answers to the questions I posed instead of avoiding them. Avoid your dishonest attempts to dismiss them and avoid your intuition (driven by cognitive dissonance) to accuse me of your failings.


Or don't. You've made it clear you're not here to learn but preach. Anyone bought your bullshit and lies yet? Drinking Beverage

Says the guy who avoids answering questions posed to him, such what was Paul's influence on Mark?

Quoting Matthew, mistaking it for Mark, and then asking a question about Matthew, is not an answer. It's your means of avoiding the question.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2015, 09:56 AM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 09:24 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Educate yourself by actually looking at reality. For instance, look for the answers to the questions I posed instead of avoiding them. Avoid your dishonest attempts to dismiss them and avoid your intuition (driven by cognitive dissonance) to accuse me of your failings.


Or don't. You've made it clear you're not here to learn but preach. Anyone bought your bullshit and lies yet? Drinking Beverage

Says the guy who avoids answering questions posed to him, such what was Paul's influence on Mark?

Quoting Matthew, mistaking it for Mark, and then asking a question about Matthew, is not an answer. It's your means of avoiding the question.

I've already told you 1) I meant Matthew in my quote and 2) if you actually want answers to your questions, look for answers to mine (including following the link I provided you) because you clearly won't listen to reason.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2015, 10:13 AM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2015 10:16 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 09:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I've already told you 1) I meant Matthew in my quote and 2) if you actually want answers to your questions, look for answers to mine (including following the link I provided you) because you clearly won't listen to reason.

Your link from the Infidels website discussed NT contradictions, no where did it mention anything about Paul's influence on the Gospels.

I never said anything about contradictions, or inconsistencies, and if you had just asked me, I would have agreed that there are a variety of inconsistencies. But still this is not related to your earlier and unsupported claim of Paul influences on the rest of the NT writings.

You still have failed to address what Paul's influence was on the earliest Gospel, the Gospel of Mark. You could just have answered that you don't know what the influence was, or that you don't see any Pauline influence in this Gospel. But you haven't even bothered to do that. You're the one being dishonest. And to avoid this, you keep asking a series of inane questions whose relationship with any point or questions I raised is absent.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2015, 10:29 AM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 10:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 09:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I've already told you 1) I meant Matthew in my quote and 2) if you actually want answers to your questions, look for answers to mine (including following the link I provided you) because you clearly won't listen to reason.

Your link from the Infidels website discussed NT contradictions, no where did it mention anything about Paul's influence on the Gospels.

I never said anything about contradictions, or inconsistencies, and if you had just asked me, I would have agreed that there are a variety of inconsistencies. But still this is not related to your earlier and unsupported claim of Paul influences on the rest of the NT writings.

You still have failed to address what Paul's influence was on the earliest Gospel, the Gospel of Mark. You could just have answered that you don't know what the influence was, or that you don't see any Pauline influence in this Gospel. But you haven't even bothered to do that. You're the one being dishonest. And to avoid this, you keep asking a series of inane questions whose relationship with any point or questions I raised is absent.

Internet <- use it

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 10:29 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 10:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Your link from the Infidels website discussed NT contradictions, no where did it mention anything about Paul's influence on the Gospels.

I never said anything about contradictions, or inconsistencies, and if you had just asked me, I would have agreed that there are a variety of inconsistencies. But still this is not related to your earlier and unsupported claim of Paul influences on the rest of the NT writings.

You still have failed to address what Paul's influence was on the earliest Gospel, the Gospel of Mark. You could just have answered that you don't know what the influence was, or that you don't see any Pauline influence in this Gospel. But you haven't even bothered to do that. You're the one being dishonest. And to avoid this, you keep asking a series of inane questions whose relationship with any point or questions I raised is absent.

Internet <- use it

There is no Pauline influence on the Gospel of Mark. You're the one who suggested otherwise, and have yet to provide anything even remotely resembling a case for it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
I think the opposite is true; Mark and Paul seem to disagree with each other on numerous points regarding the nature of Jesus. Many authors have cited the things Paul doesn't seem to know about Jesus as one of the fundamental arguments against the idea of Pauline authority and "divine inspiration".

It should be also noted that almost all of the modern concept of Orthodoxy comes from churches in the Pauline sphere of influence, which shaded how the Gospels were interpreted, and which ones were selected for the Canon. I think the bigger issue is the difference in tone between Mark/Matthew, which are essentially the same gospel (the latter having more miraculous storytelling), and the transition to the last of the synoptic gospels Luke (and related Acts) before we encounter the drastically different tone of John, post-destruction-of-Jerusalem. For purpose of the debate, here, I am granting the earliest possible dates for the writing of the gospels in question, rather than the later dates proposed by some scholars.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
15-10-2015, 11:48 AM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 11:22 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I think the opposite is true; Mark and Paul seem to disagree with each other on numerous points regarding the nature of Jesus. Many authors have cited the things Paul doesn't seem to know about Jesus as one of the fundamental arguments against the idea of Pauline authority and "divine inspiration".

It should be also noted that almost all of the modern concept of Orthodoxy comes from churches in the Pauline sphere of influence, which shaded how the Gospels were interpreted, and which ones were selected for the Canon. I think the bigger issue is the difference in tone between Mark/Matthew, which are essentially the same gospel (the latter having more miraculous storytelling), and the transition to the last of the synoptic gospels Luke (and related Acts) before we encounter the drastically different tone of John, post-destruction-of-Jerusalem. For purpose of the debate, here, I am granting the earliest possible dates for the writing of the gospels in question, rather than the later dates proposed by some scholars.

My point was to try and display that without Paul, there would be no Christianity and that Jesus (Whatever historical Yeshua you want to assign that title to) actually played no role in the establishment of Christianity (unlike say how Mohammed founded Islam or Joseph Smith founded Mormonism or how Hubbard founded Scientology) because there is nothing from the Yeshua character in any direct way nor any contemporary historical records to corroborate the later myths in the gospels attributed to their Jesus characters.

Indeed it is the case that Paul has far fewer miracles attributed to his Jesus character than in other gospels. Begging the question as to why other gospels (canonical and not) differ so appreciably in how they portray their character, Jesus.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: