"I was a christian", theist argument.
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15-10-2015, 11:54 AM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
I guess I shouldn't downplay the role that the Roman Empire played in establishing Christianity either. Without their adoption of it as the state religion, Christianity would never have spread the way it did.

Such that the existence of Christianity has far more to do with the Romans and with Paul than anything a guy named Yeshua did.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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15-10-2015, 11:54 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
Yeah, the whole "you have to link Paul and Mark" seemed a bit of a red herring, which is why I stepped in.

Sorry to trample on your argument a bit. Have fun. I'll lob boulders from the sidelines, on occasion, but I mainly want to stay aloof while I reorient myself to be board, since I've been absent so long.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-10-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 11:22 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I think the opposite is true; Mark and Paul seem to disagree with each other on numerous points regarding the nature of Jesus. Many authors have cited the things Paul doesn't seem to know about Jesus as one of the fundamental arguments against the idea of Pauline authority and "divine inspiration".

It should be also noted that almost all of the modern concept of Orthodoxy comes from churches in the Pauline sphere of influence, which shaded how the Gospels were interpreted, and which ones were selected for the Canon. I think the bigger issue is the difference in tone between Mark/Matthew, which are essentially the same gospel (the latter having more miraculous storytelling), and the transition to the last of the synoptic gospels Luke (and related Acts) before we encounter the drastically different tone of John, post-destruction-of-Jerusalem. For purpose of the debate, here, I am granting the earliest possible dates for the writing of the gospels in question, rather than the later dates proposed by some scholars.

RocketSurgeon! Good to see you again!
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15-10-2015, 11:57 AM
"I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 11:54 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Yeah, the whole "you have to link Paul and Mark" seemed a bit of a red herring, which is why I stepped in.

Sorry to trample on your argument a bit. Have fun. I'll lob boulders from the sidelines, on occasion, but I mainly want to stay aloof while I reorient myself to be board, since I've been absent so long.

Yeah, my goal was (assuming honest intentions) to point out that the gospels base (at least in part) their narratives off of stories and hearsay and not from direct sources. And that Paul established the church, who's establishment played the major and defining role in what is and isn't canon and what is and isn't NT and their interpretation (as you pointed out) Thumbsup

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15-10-2015, 12:06 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 06:55 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 06:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And then what of the other gospels and their inconsistencies with one another and the writings not included in the NT?

For instance, was Jesus from Nazareth or Bethlehem?

Uhm, he is from Nazareth in all the Gospel accounts. Perhaps you mean where was he born? If so, only Matthew and Luke say anything about his birth, tying his birth to Bethlehem so that it coincides with messianic expectations, yet they have his family fleeing from their when he was still an infant, and settling in Nazareth.

But, didn't they flee to Egypt?

How did Nazareth go from existing as place (if the gospels are to be believed) to not existing (as in no one knew where it was exactly), then suddenly some local people saying "oh yeah it was here" and becoming a tourist destination.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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15-10-2015, 12:12 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 11:54 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Yeah, the whole "you have to link Paul and Mark" seemed a bit of a red herring, which is why I stepped in.

Sorry to trample on your argument a bit. Have fun. I'll lob boulders from the sidelines, on occasion, but I mainly want to stay aloof while I reorient myself to be board, since I've been absent so long.

The question about Mark arose, from TheBeardedGuy's claim, that: "All writings about Jesus in the NT are derived from Paul who created the church and the character."

Which is not true. You'd be hard pressed to point to anything in our earliest Gospel, Mark, and speak of any part of it being derived by some Pauline influence.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-10-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 11:56 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  RocketSurgeon! Good to see you again!

You can thank Moms, who finally got around to banning GodExists, whose presence was such anathema to me that I could not participate here so long as he did.

Now he's gone, and I'm glad to be back!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-10-2015, 12:16 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 12:13 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 11:56 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  RocketSurgeon! Good to see you again!

You can thank Moms, who finally got around to banning GodExists, whose presence was such anathema to me that I could not participate here so long as he did.

Now he's gone, and I'm glad to be back!

Thanks, Moms! That exchange is a great bargain for TTA.
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15-10-2015, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2015 12:34 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 12:06 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  But, didn't they flee to Egypt?

How did Nazareth go from existing as place (if the gospels are to be believed) to not existing (as in no one knew where it was exactly), then suddenly some local people saying "oh yeah it was here" and becoming a tourist destination.

No, Nazareth existed, in fact we have variety of archaeological evidence, of it's existence. We even have "ceramic, numismatic [coins], and literary evidence for Nazareth’s existence during the Late Hellenistic and Early Roman period"

I think you're borrowing from Rene' Salm, who is not an archaeologist, but peddled a book called The Myth of Nazareth, making creationist worthy attempt of dismissing the archaeological evidence, and trying to sell the fiction that it existed but went on a hiatus when Jesus was alive, and then appeared again a few decades later.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-10-2015, 12:58 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
That's indeed a helluva claim, to say that Nazareth didn't exist, since that would be common knowledge to the people of Judea even 30-50 years later, given a reasonable amount of time for the Gospel of Mark to be written. You'd have to claim that the author was completely unfamiliar with Judea, demonstrate that the town vanished, and establish that no one who could have said "WTF, really Nazareth?" would have been in a position of any sort of power or influence in the early church.

If you're trying to peddle a BS mythology-story, you want to include as many true facts as you can. Every good con-man knows that you include 90% truth in the best lies.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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