"I was a christian", theist argument.
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15-10-2015, 01:09 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 12:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 12:06 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  But, didn't they flee to Egypt?

How did Nazareth go from existing as place (if the gospels are to be believed) to not existing (as in no one knew where it was exactly), then suddenly some local people saying "oh yeah it was here" and becoming a tourist destination.

No, Nazareth existed, in fact we have variety of archaeological evidence, of it's existence. We even have "ceramic, numismatic [coins], and literary evidence for Nazareth’s existence during the Late Hellenistic and Early Roman period"

I think you're borrowing from Rene' Salm, who is not an archaeologist, but peddled a book called The Myth of Nazareth, making creationist worthy attempt of dismissing the archaeological evidence, and trying to sell the fiction that it existed but went on a hiatus when Jesus was alive, and then appeared again a few decades later.

Never heard of the book. Googled it and it was written in 2008?

Yeah no, this from a rabbi who studied the area and was part of an archeological dig in the 1960s.

He said there was a civilization in the area, but was destroyed centuries earlier and well before the NT put Jesus there. As I recall he had lots of pictures of what was uncovered there.


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15-10-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 12:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 11:54 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Yeah, the whole "you have to link Paul and Mark" seemed a bit of a red herring, which is why I stepped in.

Sorry to trample on your argument a bit. Have fun. I'll lob boulders from the sidelines, on occasion, but I mainly want to stay aloof while I reorient myself to be board, since I've been absent so long.

The question about Mark arose, from TheBeardedGuy's claim, that: "All writings about Jesus in the NT are derived from Paul who created the church and the character."

Which is not true. You'd be hard pressed to point to anything in our earliest Gospel, Mark, and speak of any part of it being derived by some Pauline influence.

Would the gospel of Mark exist without Paul as a component of the NT? Would Christianity exist without Paul? Are you suggesting that Paul played no influence in the latter gospels or their interpretations? (seeing as how Paul is the first to attribute resurrection to the Jesus character, it would seem that the gospels derive part of their narrative from Paul)

Here, educate yourself:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...-not-much/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...sus-story/

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15-10-2015, 04:23 PM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 06:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 05:58 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There is that cognitive dissonance again. Drinking Beverage

Yea, your cognitive dissonance.

If you did the research, and claim it led you to the conclusion that Paul influenced the NT writers, than you should be able to elaborate on the influence on Mark's Gospel.

Or did Paul have no influence on Mark's Gospel? Just other NT Writings?

Paul influenced Christian theology - the interpretation of the NT and the doctrine of the church.

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16-10-2015, 07:42 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 02:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Would the gospel of Mark exist without Paul as a component of the NT?

It would. The Gospel of Mark appears to be entirely independent of any Pauline influence. There seems to be no case for Pauline source being used by Mark in his composition. No verse or passage you'd likely be able to point to and trace to Paul's influence. Paul central metaphors, linking Jesus to Adam, the Law Court imagery, The Fall, his Atonement Metaphors are entirely absent not just in Mark but the rest of the Gospels. And in Mark in particular the divinity and equality of God perspective abundant in the epistles, doesn't really appear in his writing at all.

Quote:Are you suggesting that Paul played no influence in the latter gospels or their interpretations?

There doesn't appear to be any trace of Pauline influence in the Gospels. But has Paul influenced later Christian interpretations of the Gospels, Christians who've read them together, and accepted them as cannon? Of course. Concepts like Original sin, the Fall of Man, Substitutionary Atonement theologies, owe a great deal to the Epistles for inspiring them.

Quote:(seeing as how Paul is the first to attribute resurrection to the Jesus character, it would seem that the gospels derive part of their narrative from Paul)

Uhm, Paul's not the first person to attribute a resurrection to the Jesus. The followers of Jesus already believed that long before Paul penned his letters. Let's not forget that Epistles were letter's sent to various Christian communities that were already in place who held the belief that Jesus defeated death in the resurrection.

Quote:Here, educate yourself:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...-not-much/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...sus-story/

Even these links don't support your earlier contention of Paul's influence of the writers of the Gospels.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-10-2015, 07:45 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(15-10-2015 04:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  Paul influenced Christian theology - the interpretation of the NT and the doctrine of the church.

Sure, some less so and some more so than others. Evangelicals perhaps owe more to the Paul's writings than Catholicism does. And Catholicism likely owes more to it than the Eastern Orthodox do.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-10-2015, 07:48 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(16-10-2015 07:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 02:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Would the gospel of Mark exist without Paul as a component of the NT?

It would. The Gospel of Mark appears to be entirely independent of any Pauline influence. There seems to be no case for Pauline source being used by Mark in his composition. No verse or passage you'd likely be able to point to and trace to Paul's influence. Paul central metaphors, linking Jesus to Adam, the Law Court imagery, The Fall, his Atonement Metaphors are entirely absent not just in Mark but the rest of the Gospels. And in Mark in particular the divinity and equality of God perspective abundant in the epistles, doesn't really appear in his writing at all.

Quote:Are you suggesting that Paul played no influence in the latter gospels or their interpretations?

There doesn't appear to be any trace of Pauline influence in the Gospels. But has Paul influenced later Christian interpretations of the Gospels, Christians who've read them together, and accepted them as cannon? Of course. Concepts like Original sin, the Fall of Man, Substitutionary Atonement theologies, owe a great deal to the Epistles for inspiring them.

Quote:(seeing as how Paul is the first to attribute resurrection to the Jesus character, it would seem that the gospels derive part of their narrative from Paul)

Uhm, Paul's not the first person to attribute a resurrection to the Jesus. The followers of Jesus already believed that long before Paul penned his letters. Let's not forget that Epistles were letter's sent to various Christian communities that were already in place who held the belief that Jesus defeated death in the resurrection.

Quote:Here, educate yourself:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...-not-much/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...sus-story/

Even these links don't support your earlier contention of Paul's influence of the writers of the Gospels.

Uh oh, someone failed to educate themselves and the cognitive dissonance has produced some special pleading...

Not surprising. If you choose to wallow in the ignorance that is the history of your religion, that is fine and expected. But don't pretend you are here to learn. It's just.....dishonest.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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16-10-2015, 08:01 AM (This post was last modified: 16-10-2015 08:04 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(16-10-2015 07:48 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Uh oh, someone failed to educate themselves and the cognitive dissonance has produced some special pleading...

Not surprising. If you choose to wallow in the ignorance that is the history of your religion, that is fine and expected. But don't pretend you are here to learn. It's just.....dishonest.

I know a great deal more about the history of my religion than you do that's for sure. You made a variety of claims, that you've failed to support at every turn. Such as Paul's influence on the Gospel writers like Mark, that Paul is the source of resurrection beliefs, etc... failing to support any of these claims, or even producing an argument in support of them.

So far all you did was cite the "internet" to avoid doing so.

You know as much about NT history, as Kirk Cameron knows about biology. The only ignorance and cognitive dissonance on display here is yours.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-10-2015, 08:04 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(16-10-2015 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 07:48 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Uh oh, someone failed to educate themselves and the cognitive dissonance has produced some special pleading...

Not surprising. If you choose to wallow in the ignorance that is the history of your religion, that is fine and expected. But don't pretend you are here to learn. It's just.....dishonest.

I know a great deal more about the history of my religion than you do that's for sure. You made a variety of claims, that you've failed to support at every turn. Such as Paul's influence on the Gospel writers like Mark, that Paul is the source of resurrection beliefs, etc... failing to support any of these claims, or even producing an argument in support of them.

So far all you did was cite the "internet" to avoid doing so.

You know as much about NT history, as Kirk Cameron knows about biology. The only ignorance and cognitive dissonance on display here is yours.

You keep trying to insult me by comparing me to creationists Consider It's almost as if you don't understand the basics of logic.

I've revised and updated and explained my position in various posts on the thread, but you continue to straw man me. I can't make you learn and you clearly don't want to, but won't admit it.

Perhaps you'd be more comfortable continuing to use the no true scotsman fallacy for which this thread is based? Laughat

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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16-10-2015, 08:05 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(16-10-2015 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 07:48 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Uh oh, someone failed to educate themselves and the cognitive dissonance has produced some special pleading...

Not surprising. If you choose to wallow in the ignorance that is the history of your religion, that is fine and expected. But don't pretend you are here to learn. It's just.....dishonest.

I know a great deal more about the history of my religion than you do that's for sure. You made a variety of claims, that you've failed to support at every turn. Such as Paul's influence on the Gospel writers like Mark, that Paul is the source of resurrection beliefs, etc... failing to support any of these claims, or even producing an argument in support of them.

So far all you did was cite the "internet" to avoid doing so.

You know as much about NT history, as Kirk Cameron knows about biology. The only ignorance and cognitive dissonance on display here is yours.

I'll give you this, you definitely seem to have researched the religious interpretation of your religion's history, but the secular history of it continues to elude you.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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16-10-2015, 08:08 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
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