"I was a christian", theist argument.
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09-10-2015, 08:53 AM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2015 08:58 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
""When did you start “hating” these types. It doesn’t seem to be while you were in church, or directed towards your parents. And the history you outline, shows more of an indifference than hatred for much of it. The only people you seem to harbor that hatred towards in your own personal and immediate life, are your in-laws. So wouldn’t it be fair to say that this hatred arose for these types, in that period in which you started interacting with your wife’s family?

And does that “hatred” extend to her parents and siblings as well? And if so, does she share your “hatred” for her own family?"


I'm actually going to belabor this point a bit and tell you, matter of factly, that the timing of my issues with my in-laws and my views towards religion and the religious, are not connected nor coincidental. My father-in-law is a separate problem for my mother-in-law who are both separate problems from one of my sisters-in-law. All 3 of which have earned my indifference or dislike over the course of the last 4 years or so, and none of it directly related to their theism per se. I was quite happy to coexist with them for quite a while because they didn't attempt to inject their religion into the life of my family and they hadn't actually hurt anyone in my family. But they couldn't keep their noses out forever as it turns out, because they felt the religious calling to intervene in different ways (mostly passive-aggressive theistic bullshit).

But it is their brand of theism (particularly the MiL and FiL) that I despise because it is that brand that plays the "holier than art thou" card. The type that claims to know better than others simply because they are religious. The type who then use their religion as a way to be forgiven for being assholes without actually having to do anything to earn forgiveness from those they wronged. The type who have become so brainwashed by religious thinking, that it has permeated every other aspect of their life.

Types like you too. Who deceptively attempt to push their agenda on others. Who assume to know more about another person than that person themselves. Who lie to about their agendas and reasons for engaging with others (be that lie to the person being engaged with, or perhaps a lie to themselves).

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09-10-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 08:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 08:33 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "I don’t find myself scotsmanning at all, since I’m not arguing that folks who were former theists, of former atheists, weren’t really theists of atheists at the time. I’m agreeing with a point that’s likely agreed upon here, that Kirk Cameron may have been an atheist, but nothing like the you, or other atheists here, and that this works both ways."

Yeah, that is a straw man. Facepalm

"Well, they might have been a(n) atheist/theist, but they weren't a(n) atheist/theist like regular atheists/theists because I have deduced this based on the fact that I am an atheist/theist."

Actually it would be: ""Well, they might have been a(n) atheist/theist, but they weren't a(n) atheist/theist like myself, and theist/atheists types I hang out with, or spend time with on a forum.

And I'm sure you'll have no problem acknowledging that whatever sort of atheism Kirk Cameron once subscribed to, it was nothing like yours, or folks here.

As to what constitutes as a regular atheists, or theists that would be a bit of tricky composition, so I would avoid making that comparison.

Still a straw man Facepalm

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09-10-2015, 09:25 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 08:46 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I still prayed to the same god and jesus as before. I just didn't go to church. No. Church wasn't important to me, but god and jesus were at that point.

Going to church, attending religious services, being a constant part of a religious community, are all fundamental aspects of religious life. If sleeping in on Sundays is more important that says something about the significance. If you spend years not going to church, beyond an occasional holiday, yes that says something about the significance of your religious beliefs. Praying, and all that does as well. Religions are not an individual thing, as much as they are a communal thing. Community is the very life blood of religion.

I couldn’t say that religion was insignificant for you during those periods, where you still prayed, but it wouldn’t be as significant as to those who were committed to being a part of a religious community. Saying church wasn't important to you, says something about Christianity not being that important to you either. What does that Christianity even amount to then? Then as a prayer or two at night, and small trickets, and token gestures?

What makes it anymore significant to you, than of my plethora of friends who still identify as Christians, but have no desire to go to church, and haven’t done so in ages? Likely nothing. Christianity was likely no more significant to you than it is to them, it has some bearing on their lives, but it’s commitments are fragile and so easy to be broken, with very little consequence.

Quote:I started "hating" theists who push their agendas on others when I realized religion was an inherently divisive system and that most of the "morals" the religious were pushing were vile and despicable rejections of our own humanity and nature.

I started "hating" these types when it became clear that they presumed to know better than me in their "holier than art thou" way, including the claims that they knew me and my life better than I did (including presumptions about why I did or didn't like theism or religion).

My wife's family is a separate world of problems that extend well beyond their religious fervor.

They’re not separate, they’re the immediate representations of the type your despise. And your hatred and resentment for them is not something you get to put aside in a petri dish reserved exclusively for them, because that not the way hatred and resentment work. It spills everywhere.

Where as you see religion as an inherently divisive system, you don’t seem to see that division as a feature of your own family, as creating a contentiously divisive line between you and your parents. Clearly that contentious division is not a feature of both your immediate family, and your in-laws. Your father and mother, are not spitting images of your wife's, even though they both are Christians.

And by you own admission you get along fine with your parents. It’s your wife’s side that solidifies that division. So wouldn’t it be true, that you begun to recognize the true cost and burden of the divisiveness of religion, in that relationship with your in-laws?

But it’s harder to see that divisiveness in relationship to your parents right?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-10-2015, 09:31 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
"Going to church, attending religious services, being a constant part of a religious community, are all fundamental aspects of religious life. If sleeping in on Sundays is more important that says something about the significance. If you spend years not going to church, beyond an occasional holiday, yes that says something about the significance of your religious beliefs. Praying, and all that does as well. Religions are not an individual thing, as much as they are a communal thing. Community is the very life blood of religion. "

Oh look, another straw man. Since my religious beliefs and methods weren't yours, they weren't "significant." Dodgy

Seriously, your attempts to play shrink are just awful. Stop trying to diagnose my life, you're failing.

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09-10-2015, 09:31 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 08:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ""When did you start “hating” these types. It doesn’t seem to be while you were in church, or directed towards your parents. And the history you outline, shows more of an indifference than hatred for much of it. The only people you seem to harbor that hatred towards in your own personal and immediate life, are your in-laws. So wouldn’t it be fair to say that this hatred arose for these types, in that period in which you started interacting with your wife’s family?

And does that “hatred” extend to her parents and siblings as well? And if so, does she share your “hatred” for her own family?"


I'm actually going to belabor this point a bit and tell you, matter of factly, that the timing of my issues with my in-laws and my views towards religion and the religious, are not connected nor coincidental. My father-in-law is a separate problem for my mother-in-law who are both separate problems from one of my sisters-in-law. All 3 of which have earned my indifference or dislike over the course of the last 4 years or so, and none of it directly related to their theism per se. I was quite happy to coexist with them for quite a while because they didn't attempt to inject their religion into the life of my family and they hadn't actually hurt anyone in my family. But they couldn't keep their noses out forever as it turns out, because they felt the religious calling to intervene in different ways (mostly passive-aggressive theistic bullshit).

But it is their brand of theism (particularly the MiL and FiL) that I despise because it is that brand that plays the "holier than art thou" card. The type that claims to know better than others simply because they are religious. The type who then use their religion as a way to be forgiven for being assholes without actually having to do anything to earn forgiveness from those they wronged. The type who have become so brainwashed by religious thinking, that it has permeated every other aspect of their life.

You already stated that you were an atheist before your relationship with your wife. So it's acknowledged that's not why you are an atheist. That it has little to nothing to do with your in-laws.

But your attitude towards theism, is directly related. It's why those theists you despise tend to be representative to you of your in-laws types. If these immediate relationship were fundamentally different, amiable, and good for the most part. Your attitude towards theism would likely also be drastically different.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-10-2015, 09:35 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 09:31 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 08:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ""When did you start “hating” these types. It doesn’t seem to be while you were in church, or directed towards your parents. And the history you outline, shows more of an indifference than hatred for much of it. The only people you seem to harbor that hatred towards in your own personal and immediate life, are your in-laws. So wouldn’t it be fair to say that this hatred arose for these types, in that period in which you started interacting with your wife’s family?

And does that “hatred” extend to her parents and siblings as well? And if so, does she share your “hatred” for her own family?"


I'm actually going to belabor this point a bit and tell you, matter of factly, that the timing of my issues with my in-laws and my views towards religion and the religious, are not connected nor coincidental. My father-in-law is a separate problem for my mother-in-law who are both separate problems from one of my sisters-in-law. All 3 of which have earned my indifference or dislike over the course of the last 4 years or so, and none of it directly related to their theism per se. I was quite happy to coexist with them for quite a while because they didn't attempt to inject their religion into the life of my family and they hadn't actually hurt anyone in my family. But they couldn't keep their noses out forever as it turns out, because they felt the religious calling to intervene in different ways (mostly passive-aggressive theistic bullshit).

But it is their brand of theism (particularly the MiL and FiL) that I despise because it is that brand that plays the "holier than art thou" card. The type that claims to know better than others simply because they are religious. The type who then use their religion as a way to be forgiven for being assholes without actually having to do anything to earn forgiveness from those they wronged. The type who have become so brainwashed by religious thinking, that it has permeated every other aspect of their life.

You already stated that you were an atheist before your relationship with your wife. So it's acknowledged that's not why you are an atheist. That it has little to nothing to do with your in-laws.

But your attitude towards theism, is directly related. It's why those theists you despise tend to be representative to you of your in-laws types. If these immediate relationship were fundamentally different, amiable, and good for the most part. Your attitude towards theism would likely also be drastically different.

"But your attitude towards theism, is directly related. It's why those theists you despise tend to be representative to you of your in-laws types. If these immediate relationship were fundamentally different, amiable, and good for the most part. Your attitude towards theism would likely also be drastically different."

No, my attitude towards my in-laws and towards theists are not directly related. No matter how many times you keep stating that.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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09-10-2015, 09:35 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 09:31 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 08:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ""When did you start “hating” these types. It doesn’t seem to be while you were in church, or directed towards your parents. And the history you outline, shows more of an indifference than hatred for much of it. The only people you seem to harbor that hatred towards in your own personal and immediate life, are your in-laws. So wouldn’t it be fair to say that this hatred arose for these types, in that period in which you started interacting with your wife’s family?

And does that “hatred” extend to her parents and siblings as well? And if so, does she share your “hatred” for her own family?"


I'm actually going to belabor this point a bit and tell you, matter of factly, that the timing of my issues with my in-laws and my views towards religion and the religious, are not connected nor coincidental. My father-in-law is a separate problem for my mother-in-law who are both separate problems from one of my sisters-in-law. All 3 of which have earned my indifference or dislike over the course of the last 4 years or so, and none of it directly related to their theism per se. I was quite happy to coexist with them for quite a while because they didn't attempt to inject their religion into the life of my family and they hadn't actually hurt anyone in my family. But they couldn't keep their noses out forever as it turns out, because they felt the religious calling to intervene in different ways (mostly passive-aggressive theistic bullshit).

But it is their brand of theism (particularly the MiL and FiL) that I despise because it is that brand that plays the "holier than art thou" card. The type that claims to know better than others simply because they are religious. The type who then use their religion as a way to be forgiven for being assholes without actually having to do anything to earn forgiveness from those they wronged. The type who have become so brainwashed by religious thinking, that it has permeated every other aspect of their life.

You already stated that you were an atheist before your relationship with your wife. So it's acknowledged that's not why you are an atheist. That it has little to nothing to do with your in-laws.

But your attitude towards theism, is directly related. It's why those theists you despise tend to be representative to you of your in-laws types. If these immediate relationship were fundamentally different, amiable, and good for the most part. Your attitude towards theism would likely also be drastically different.

"I was quite happy to coexist with them for quite a while because they didn't attempt to inject their religion into the life of my family and they hadn't actually hurt anyone in my family. But they couldn't keep their noses out forever as it turns out, because they felt the religious calling to intervene in different ways (mostly passive-aggressive theistic bullshit)."

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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09-10-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 09:31 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Seriously, your attempts to play shrink are just awful. Stop trying to diagnose my life, you're failing.

Then tell which parts of it are not true.

Because if you found some miraculous means of escaping the trajectories of the pathologies of the rest of us, I would like to know about your special sauce.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-10-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 09:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 09:31 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Seriously, your attempts to play shrink are just awful. Stop trying to diagnose my life, you're failing.

Then tell which parts of it are not true.

Because if you found some miraculous means of escaping the trajectories of the pathologies of the rest of us, I would like to know about your special sauce.

Education Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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09-10-2015, 09:45 AM
RE: "I was a christian", theist argument.
(09-10-2015 09:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 09:31 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Seriously, your attempts to play shrink are just awful. Stop trying to diagnose my life, you're failing.

Then tell which parts of it are not true.

Because if you found some miraculous means of escaping the trajectories of the pathologies of the rest of us, I would like to know about your special sauce.

You do realize that there are a plethora of examples of theists (what you would consider religious and what you wouldn't in your straw men) realizing that their religious beliefs are bullshit and then identify as atheist, right?

The fact that you can't escape your "pathology" is not an indictment against humanity being unable to.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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