I will debate any atheist on here
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11-02-2015, 10:30 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(11-02-2015 10:21 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Indeed but one can ridicule the absurdity of the underlying failed epistemology without ridiculing the person who extrapolates a belief from their 'feels'.

Yabut, where's the fun in that?

#sigh
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11-02-2015, 10:32 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(11-02-2015 10:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(11-02-2015 10:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I never make fun of those personal stories and I never ask for them either.

You can't argue them.

All I know is that people lie for Jesus all the time. I know I told more than a few whoppers when I was a believer. They sounded really good.

Moms, you know I Heart you but I think letting these anecdotal stories of miracles go unchallenged when such ordinary and simple explanations are at hand would be a disservice to everyone and anyone who reads this thread.

I’m not so much arguing as I am pointing out potential explanations to what he sees as God’s intervening hand. If there was ever a situation where Occam’s Razor applies is here, at these two heartfelt but ridiculous conclusions.

I don't mind the application of Occam's razor. But what I am saying is that you can't really argue with a personal story.

It's like when someone says (like me), "I don't believe in ghosts." then it never fails someone says, "I do, I saw the ghost of my dead grandmother moments/days/weeks/months/years after she died." (or some shit like that)

I can't argue that assertion, I can only point out many people are mistaken by lights or that the brain is hardwired to see faces. Point out possible rational explanations...

But, I also run the risk that to other believers in ghosts that might overhear the conversation, it just makes me look like a bitch.

That's the thing, I can't change their mind, unless they're willing to admit they might be wrong. They probably think the exact same thing about me.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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11-02-2015, 10:40 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(08-02-2015 12:55 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 12:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  What is the extra-Biblical evidence for the resurrection?

Why assume that we need extra-Biblical evidence?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

You rank amateur.Laugh out load

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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11-02-2015, 10:42 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(11-02-2015 10:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(11-02-2015 10:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Moms, you know I Heart you but I think letting these anecdotal stories of miracles go unchallenged when such ordinary and simple explanations are at hand would be a disservice to everyone and anyone who reads this thread.

I’m not so much arguing as I am pointing out potential explanations to what he sees as God’s intervening hand. If there was ever a situation where Occam’s Razor applies is here, at these two heartfelt but ridiculous conclusions.

I don't mind the application of Occam's razor. But what I am saying is that you can't really argue with a personal story.

It's like when someone says (like me), "I don't believe in ghosts." then it never fails someone says, "I do, I saw the ghost of my dead grandmother moments/days/weeks/months/years after she died." (or some shit like that)

I can't argue that assertion, I can only point out many people are mistaken by lights or that the brain is hardwired to see faces. Point out possible rational explanations...

But, I also run the risk that to other believers in ghosts that might overhear the conversation, it just makes me look like a bitch.

That's the thing, I can't change their mind, unless they're willing to admit they might be wrong. They probably think the exact same thing about me.

I understand your pov. But since we are in an atheist forum whoever comes in here has to know that we don’t hold anything sacred Angel

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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11-02-2015, 10:47 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(11-02-2015 10:42 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  ...
we don’t hold anything sacred Angel

Except Our Lady of the Holy Gwynity.

Angry

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11-02-2015, 10:53 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(11-02-2015 10:47 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(11-02-2015 10:42 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  ...
we don’t hold anything sacred Angel

Except Our Lady of the Holy Gwynity.

Angry

Yabut, we don't so much hold her sacred as wish we did...

... this is my signature!
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11-02-2015, 10:55 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(11-02-2015 10:42 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(11-02-2015 10:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't mind the application of Occam's razor. But what I am saying is that you can't really argue with a personal story.

It's like when someone says (like me), "I don't believe in ghosts." then it never fails someone says, "I do, I saw the ghost of my dead grandmother moments/days/weeks/months/years after she died." (or some shit like that)

I can't argue that assertion, I can only point out many people are mistaken by lights or that the brain is hardwired to see faces. Point out possible rational explanations...

But, I also run the risk that to other believers in ghosts that might overhear the conversation, it just makes me look like a bitch.

That's the thing, I can't change their mind, unless they're willing to admit they might be wrong. They probably think the exact same thing about me.

I understand your pov. But since we are in an atheist forum whoever comes in here has to know that we don’t hold anything sacred Angel

I get that. As a forum of atheists we are not required to pander to anyone -- just like a religious forum isn't required to pander to an atheist.

I'm in no way implying that we should. That's why I personally, don't ask people why they believe -- since it always leads to that whole personal revelation crap. Religious people love sharing their stories because they play so well with other believers.

If someone wants to deal with facts about why the babble isn't the word of dog, I'll be happy to explain why.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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12-02-2015, 12:04 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2015 12:26 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
To all,

I want to remind everyone that way back on page 5 of this thread, I asked COTW how I can reliably distinguish what he is calling "God" from something that he is merely imagining.

His answer on page 6: You probably can't...but what we can do is appeal to the best explanation, and my argument is that God has more explanatory value regarding the question of origins.

Now 48 pages later, after all of his arguments, we still have no alternative if we want to "see" his God, but to use our imagination. That's it. We can't touch it, taste it, see it, hear it or smell it. We can't logically infer it. When we look at the world we see nothing but natural, finite, corruptible, mutable, imperfect entities. How can we logically infer from this a supernatural, infinite, incorruptible, immutable, perfect entity. It can't be done. We can imagine such a thing but how is what we are imagining not imaginary?

Now contrast this with evolution. When I read a book on evolution I can imagine all of the things the book says. I can imagine the DNA in the cells dividing. I can imagine the chromosomes breaking up and recombining. I can imagine the egg and the sperm coming together and creating a unique new genome. I can imagine the animal that results from this being slightly different than its parents. I can imagine mutations altering and adding to the genetic diversity of a population. I can imagine all of these small changes adding up over time and working in concert with natural selection to produce big changes and eventually leading to a new species.

The difference is that If I choose to, I can also directly observe all of these things as well or I can read about the work of scientists who have observed all of this. And if I can't observe over millions of years I can directly observe the mechanism and observe that there is no known mechanism for keeping these changes from occurring and adding up to still bigger changes. Beyond that I can make predictions or at least scientists can make predictions based on the theory about what will be found in the fossil record and indeed I can look at the fossil record and see that indeed the predictions bare out. We see exactly what we would see if the theory is correct.

We can't do this with "God" and that is the fatal flaw of the God belief. In the end we still have no alternative but to imagine it and the imaginary is not real and does not actually exist. No matter how "explanatory" the imaginary is it is still imaginary.

And this problem is unsolvable for the believer.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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12-02-2015, 12:51 AM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(11-02-2015 10:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I never make fun of those personal stories and I never ask for them either.

You can't argue them.

All I know is that people lie for Jesus all the time. I know I told more than a few whoppers when I was a believer. They sounded really good.

I think CotW is telling the truth in both of those stories, which is interesting of itself. He's obviously aware of the weakness of at least the McDonald's story but he didn't try to dress it up or make it more impressive - for example by pretending he'd chosen a less common sign as his "sign from God".

CotW, yeah, those two stories... I dunno man. I get the Iraq war thing and being scared shitless. I sure as fuck would grab hold of anything that gave a little comfort - I have prayed similar prayers myself at times of stress, in the long long ago, when I thought it might be of some use. Although I never got as far as linking McDonald's and religion Wink But yeah, they give you some comfort, some reason for thinking a Big Guy out there is looking out for you...

But ja, in the end... I think they're both easily explained as you being already a believer - thus, primed to view things in a certain light - and also being a bit credulous and also in the one instance stressed. Wanting to believe. Seeing the truth that you wanted to see.

If you'd chosen instead that God as a sign should show you a fully dressed Masai warrior holding a placard saying "God loves you <your name>", do you *really* think *that* prayer would have been answered? You kinda had to know you were setting the bar quite low by asking for a McDonald's sign...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-02-2015, 02:50 AM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
Damn, 54 pages? You guys have a Sparks notes link for this thread yet? Not sure if I should accept or not...

Atir aissom atir imon
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