I will debate any atheist on here
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12-02-2015, 07:19 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
@ goodwithoutgod - I think you mentioned something about having read several books by theistic Bible scholars, but I can't remember if it was earlier in this thread or somewhere else. Have you read any work that is more solid than what we usually come across? I want to expand my library a bit, and it would be cool to find something that's at least well-researched and thought-provoking and doesn't make me facepalm every five seconds.
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12-02-2015, 07:36 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(12-02-2015 12:12 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  So far the jury is out on if he actually wants a real debate. He has yet to reply to the debate he accepted in the boxing ring. If he's just interested in bloviating then fine, but so far I'm not impressed with his approach. If this continues I'll just move this thread into the Melee.

So just in case...

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...f-the-wild

I'm thinking he's a POE.,As if someone decided we were too long without a toy.
Smile

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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12-02-2015, 08:09 PM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2015 08:47 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(12-02-2015 07:19 PM)Dahlia Wrote:  @ goodwithoutgod - I think you mentioned something about having read several books by theistic Bible scholars, but I can't remember if it was earlier in this thread or somewhere else. Have you read any work that is more solid than what we usually come across? I want to expand my library a bit, and it would be cool to find something that's at least well-researched and thought-provoking and doesn't make me facepalm every five seconds.

Well what I mean is I go out of my way to use christian theological books in debates vice atheist books. It can be the same piece of information derived from the same resource but if it comes from an atheist book, it gets waved aside as atheist rhetoric. The same piece of information derived from a christian textbook or scholarly research book and it smacks the creationist in the face. So when I state for example, the gospels were written in:

Writings of the Gospels: Mark (60 to 75 CE), Matthew (80 to 90 CE), Luke (80 to 90 CE based on the Gospels of Mark), and John (80 to 110 CE) (Albl 283).

With the citation reflecting Albl page 283 and then the reference of:

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

Even though that same info can be found on wiki under gospels, or a plethora of atheist books, it is harder for the christian to discredit it when this is a christian university textbook designed to teach christian history. So when they state, "no, matthew mark and luke actually wrote those", I can point to the evidence written by christian scholars based on years of research which says otherwise. So in a nutshell, I use their own books against them. Yes I came across most of these books as they were the required textbooks for my university classes when I got my degree in religious studies from saint leo university...(to know ones enemy is to defeat him).I have some outstanding atheist books as well. These are my favorite go to sources:

Xtian:

Boadt, L. (1984) Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction. New York. Paulist Press. (outstanding book, it takes great pains to be forensically accurate, to a fault, and as such, becomes a great weapon to discredit the OT)

Lieu, Samuel N. C., and Montserrat, Dominic, Constantine: History, Historiography, and Legend. London: Routledge, 2002. Print.

O'Collins, Gerald, Christology: A Biblical, Historical, and Systematic Study of Jesus. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2009. Print.

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

Stewart, Cynthia., The Catholic church: a brief popular history. Winona, Mn: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2008. Print.

The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University press, Inc., 2011. Print.

Moule, C. F. D., The birth of the New Testament. New York: Harper & Row, 1962. Print.

Mattison, Mark. “The Meaning of the Atonement.” Mark Mattison. 1987. Web. Retrieved from http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/atonement.html

Anselm, Evans, G. R., The Major Works. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 1998. Print.

Visser, Sandra and Williams, Thomas, Anselm. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 2009. Print.

Murray, John, The Atonement. Evansville: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1976. Print.

Dawson, Gerrit S. Jesus Ascended: The Meaning of Christ’s Continuing Incarnation. New Jersey: P&R publishing, 2004. Print.



Atheist (all of these are fantastic books):

Ehrman, Bart. Misquoting Jesus: The story behind who changed the bible and why. New York, Harper Collins. 2005. Print.

Carrier, Richard, On the historicity of jesus: why we might have reason for doubt. Sheffield, England: Sheffield Phoenix press, 2014. Print.

Wells, S. (2013) The skeptics annotated Bible. New York. SAB Books, LLC.

Hitchens, Christopher. God is not great: How religion poisons everything. New York, Hatchette Book Group inc. 2009. Print.

Hitchens, Christopher. Hitch 22: A memoir. New York, Hatchette Book Group inc. 2010. Print.

Hitchens, Christopher. The portable atheist: essential readings for the nonbeliever. Philadelphia, PA., Da Capo Press. 2007. Print.

Boghossian, Peter. A manual for creating atheists. Durham, NC. Pitchstone Publishing. 2013. Print.

Barker, Dan. Godless: how an evangelical preacher became one of america's leading atheists. Berkeley, CA. Bang Printing. 2008. Print.

Crossman, J. D. The power of parable: How fiction by jesus became fiction about jesus. New York. Harper Collins Publishers. 2012. Print.

Mills, David. Atheist Universe: The thinking person's answer to christian fundamentalism, makes the case against intelligent design. Berkeley, CA. Bang Printing. 2006. Print.

Pessin, Andrew. The god question: What famous thinkers from plato to dawkins have said about the divine. Oxford, England. Oneworld Publications. 2009. Print.

Bierlein, J.F. Parallel Myths: A fascinating look at the common threads woven through the world's greatest myths-and the central role they have played through time. New York. Ballantine Publishing Group. 1994. Print.

Helms, Randel. Gospel fictions. New York. Prometheus Books. 1988. Print.


Neutral (sociologist)
Zuckerman, Phil. Society without god. New York. New York University press. 2008. Print.

Hope this helps, sorry took me awhile to get the books down, properly format the citation, and type it. I will post it in my resource library as well.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid735241

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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13-02-2015, 12:44 AM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(12-02-2015 12:10 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 10:46 AM)pablo Wrote:  Eve was made from a McRib. Tongue

Aw hell, even God doesn't use quality parts anymore. Dodgy
Does that make Ronald God and the Hamburglar the devil?
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13-02-2015, 12:52 AM
I will debate any atheist on here
Behold the Messiah and his disciples.    
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13-02-2015, 01:07 AM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(12-02-2015 08:09 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 07:19 PM)Dahlia Wrote:  @ goodwithoutgod - I think you mentioned something about having read several books by theistic Bible scholars, but I can't remember if it was earlier in this thread or somewhere else. Have you read any work that is more solid than what we usually come across? I want to expand my library a bit, and it would be cool to find something that's at least well-researched and thought-provoking and doesn't make me facepalm every five seconds.

Well what I mean is I go out of my way to use christian theological books in debates vice atheist books. It can be the same piece of information derived from the same resource but if it comes from an atheist book, it gets waved aside as atheist rhetoric. The same piece of information derived from a christian textbook or scholarly research book and it smacks the creationist in the face. So when I state for example, the gospels were written in:

Writings of the Gospels: Mark (60 to 75 CE), Matthew (80 to 90 CE), Luke (80 to 90 CE based on the Gospels of Mark), and John (80 to 110 CE) (Albl 283).

With the citation reflecting Albl page 283 and then the reference of:

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

Even though that same info can be found on wiki under gospels, or a plethora of atheist books, it is harder for the christian to discredit it when this is a christian university textbook designed to teach christian history. So when they state, "no, matthew mark and luke actually wrote those", I can point to the evidence written by christian scholars based on years of research which says otherwise. So in a nutshell, I use their own books against them. Yes I came across most of these books as they were the required textbooks for my university classes when I got my degree in religious studies from saint leo university...(to know ones enemy is to defeat him).I have some outstanding atheist books as well. These are my favorite go to sources:

Xtian:

Boadt, L. (1984) Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction. New York. Paulist Press. (outstanding book, it takes great pains to be forensically accurate, to a fault, and as such, becomes a great weapon to discredit the OT)

Lieu, Samuel N. C., and Montserrat, Dominic, Constantine: History, Historiography, and Legend. London: Routledge, 2002. Print.

O'Collins, Gerald, Christology: A Biblical, Historical, and Systematic Study of Jesus. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2009. Print.

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

Stewart, Cynthia., The Catholic church: a brief popular history. Winona, Mn: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2008. Print.

The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University press, Inc., 2011. Print.

Moule, C. F. D., The birth of the New Testament. New York: Harper & Row, 1962. Print.

Mattison, Mark. “The Meaning of the Atonement.” Mark Mattison. 1987. Web. Retrieved from http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/atonement.html

Anselm, Evans, G. R., The Major Works. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 1998. Print.

Visser, Sandra and Williams, Thomas, Anselm. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 2009. Print.

Murray, John, The Atonement. Evansville: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1976. Print.

Dawson, Gerrit S. Jesus Ascended: The Meaning of Christ’s Continuing Incarnation. New Jersey: P&R publishing, 2004. Print.



Atheist (all of these are fantastic books):

Ehrman, Bart. Misquoting Jesus: The story behind who changed the bible and why. New York, Harper Collins. 2005. Print.

Carrier, Richard, On the historicity of jesus: why we might have reason for doubt. Sheffield, England: Sheffield Phoenix press, 2014. Print.

Wells, S. (2013) The skeptics annotated Bible. New York. SAB Books, LLC.

Hitchens, Christopher. God is not great: How religion poisons everything. New York, Hatchette Book Group inc. 2009. Print.

Hitchens, Christopher. Hitch 22: A memoir. New York, Hatchette Book Group inc. 2010. Print.

Hitchens, Christopher. The portable atheist: essential readings for the nonbeliever. Philadelphia, PA., Da Capo Press. 2007. Print.

Boghossian, Peter. A manual for creating atheists. Durham, NC. Pitchstone Publishing. 2013. Print.

Barker, Dan. Godless: how an evangelical preacher became one of america's leading atheists. Berkeley, CA. Bang Printing. 2008. Print.

Crossman, J. D. The power of parable: How fiction by jesus became fiction about jesus. New York. Harper Collins Publishers. 2012. Print.

Mills, David. Atheist Universe: The thinking person's answer to christian fundamentalism, makes the case against intelligent design. Berkeley, CA. Bang Printing. 2006. Print.

Pessin, Andrew. The god question: What famous thinkers from plato to dawkins have said about the divine. Oxford, England. Oneworld Publications. 2009. Print.

Bierlein, J.F. Parallel Myths: A fascinating look at the common threads woven through the world's greatest myths-and the central role they have played through time. New York. Ballantine Publishing Group. 1994. Print.

Helms, Randel. Gospel fictions. New York. Prometheus Books. 1988. Print.


Neutral (sociologist)
Zuckerman, Phil. Society without god. New York. New York University press. 2008. Print.

Hope this helps, sorry took me awhile to get the books down, properly format the citation, and type it. I will post it in my resource library as well.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid735241

Thank you so much for taking the time to compile all of that! I'll definitely check them out.
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14-02-2015, 08:39 AM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(11-02-2015 09:45 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  #1 - MacDonald’s restaurant sign huh? Some food for thought here sparky (pun intended).
There are 14,267 MacDonald restaurants in the US http://www.statista.com/statistics/25604...h-america/ (please notice how I take the time to cite my sources Thumbsup ).

It spent 988 million on advertising http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/The-Bi...ng-in-2013 (Christian Science Monitor btw), but that’s just the parent company. The franchises spent, brace yourself for this:
“Restaurants spent $6.449 billion on measured media (TV, magazines, newspapers, Internet display ads, radio, outdoor boards and free-standing inserts)”.

Of all the “signs” (I love puns) you could have asked for you literally could not have picked a more ubiquitous one. Congratulations, I didn’t think you could lower the bar for evidence any further but lo and behold you’ve once again outdone yourself!

Allow me to shut that shit down reallll quick Big Grin First off, I could care less how much money "restaurants" spent on advertising. I am talking about a specific restaurant billboard, at a particular time, at a particular place. The prayer was WHEN I open my eyes, at that particular time, at that particular location, show me a McDonald's sign, and that's exactly what I got.

If you were kidnapped by ISIS (in the United States) and while driving to the place of your execution, you guys are driving on any random highway, you were told to close your eyes for 15 seconds, and when you open them, if you guys pass a McDonalds sign your life will be spared, but if you don't, the execution will carry on. I don't care how much money or how many McDonald's signs are out there, the chances of you passing that particular sign, at that particular time, at that particular area is extremely low...so low that I am willing to bet you ANYTHING that you wouldn't make it, buddy.

And not only that, but hell, in Arizona on Interstate 10E going towards Tucson, as long of a highway that is, there ISN'T many McDonald signs out there along the highway...maybe a total of 2...so I am not buying that "they are everywhere" crap.

(11-02-2015 09:45 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  #2 - Laying of the hands huh? I don’t want to shake you up too much ( Big Grin ) but...
http://www.epilepsy.com/learn/epilepsy-1...ng-seizure
"As the seizure ends, the postictal phase occurs - this is the recovery period after the seizure. Some people recover immediately while others may take minutes to hours to feel like their usual self.”

To give yourself and your prayer credit for bringing a seizure to an end has to be one of the most hubris filled (go ahead, look up hubris if you need to, take your time, we have all day) egotistical, pompous (go ahead, I’ll wait for this one too) arrogant, pretentious and supercilious (really? fine, I’ll continue to wait) things I’ve ever heard! Holy fucking shit! While you’re at it since you seem to have a direct line to the Big Guy why don’t you walk into the closest Children’s Hospital and lay your hands on them and cure them all? Dude with your Powers of Prayer it is a travesty that you haven’t done this already. What’s wrong with you, are you that selfish?

The guy was shaking before I said the prayer, and he stopped after I said the prayer, point blank, period. Now, this is just one of the brute facts in life...the guy was shaking before...and he stopped immediately after..plain and simple...you can call it what you want to call it. I am calling it how I see it, and that is that my prayers were answered by the living God.

As far as Children's Hospital is concerned...that did cross my mind...for example, I thought about how I would have felt if I laid hands on the guy and instead of saying a personal prayer to God for him, I said "In that name of Jesus, you are healed!!!" and then the guy stopped shaking and got up off the ground as if he was never there in the first place. Do I believe that it can happen? Hell yeah....do I have the faith that it will happen, not quite, unfortunately.
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14-02-2015, 08:41 AM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(11-02-2015 10:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I never make fun of those personal stories and I never ask for them either.

You can't argue them.

All I know is that people lie for Jesus all the time. I know I told more than a few whoppers when I was a believer. They sounded really good.

"I always tell the truth, even when I lie"
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14-02-2015, 08:49 AM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(11-02-2015 10:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I’m not so much arguing as I am pointing out potential explanations to what he sees as God’s intervening hand. If there was ever a situation where Occam’s Razor applies is here, at these two heartfelt but ridiculous conclusions.

I don't think Occam's Razor applies here. There is a thing called "too much of a damn coincidence", and I think that both cases qualifies as such.

The fact of the matter is, prayer works.
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14-02-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(14-02-2015 08:39 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(11-02-2015 09:45 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  #1 - MacDonald’s restaurant sign huh? Some food for thought here sparky (pun intended).
There are 14,267 MacDonald restaurants in the US http://www.statista.com/statistics/25604...h-america/ (please notice how I take the time to cite my sources Thumbsup ).

It spent 988 million on advertising http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/The-Bi...ng-in-2013 (Christian Science Monitor btw), but that’s just the parent company. The franchises spent, brace yourself for this:
“Restaurants spent $6.449 billion on measured media (TV, magazines, newspapers, Internet display ads, radio, outdoor boards and free-standing inserts)”.

Of all the “signs” (I love puns) you could have asked for you literally could not have picked a more ubiquitous one. Congratulations, I didn’t think you could lower the bar for evidence any further but lo and behold you’ve once again outdone yourself!

Allow me to shut that shit down reallll quick Big Grin First off, I could care less how much money "restaurants" spent on advertising. I am talking about a specific restaurant billboard, at a particular time, at a particular place. The prayer was WHEN I open my eyes, at that particular time, at that particular location, show me a McDonald's sign, and that's exactly what I got.

If you were kidnapped by ISIS (in the United States) and while driving to the place of your execution, you guys are driving on any random highway, you were told to close your eyes for 15 seconds, and when you open them, if you guys pass a McDonalds sign your life will be spared, but if you don't, the execution will carry on. I don't care how much money or how many McDonald's signs are out there, the chances of you passing that particular sign, at that particular time, at that particular area is extremely low...so low that I am willing to bet you ANYTHING that you wouldn't make it, buddy.

And not only that, but hell, in Arizona on Interstate 10E going towards Tucson, as long of a highway that is, there ISN'T many McDonald signs out there along the highway...maybe a total of 2...so I am not buying that "they are everywhere" crap.

(11-02-2015 09:45 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  #2 - Laying of the hands huh? I don’t want to shake you up too much ( Big Grin ) but...
http://www.epilepsy.com/learn/epilepsy-1...ng-seizure
"As the seizure ends, the postictal phase occurs - this is the recovery period after the seizure. Some people recover immediately while others may take minutes to hours to feel like their usual self.”

To give yourself and your prayer credit for bringing a seizure to an end has to be one of the most hubris filled (go ahead, look up hubris if you need to, take your time, we have all day) egotistical, pompous (go ahead, I’ll wait for this one too) arrogant, pretentious and supercilious (really? fine, I’ll continue to wait) things I’ve ever heard! Holy fucking shit! While you’re at it since you seem to have a direct line to the Big Guy why don’t you walk into the closest Children’s Hospital and lay your hands on them and cure them all? Dude with your Powers of Prayer it is a travesty that you haven’t done this already. What’s wrong with you, are you that selfish?

The guy was shaking before I said the prayer, and he stopped after I said the prayer, point blank, period. Now, this is just one of the brute facts in life...the guy was shaking before...and he stopped immediately after..plain and simple...you can call it what you want to call it. I am calling it how I see it, and that is that my prayers were answered by the living God.

As far as Children's Hospital is concerned...that did cross my mind...for example, I thought about how I would have felt if I laid hands on the guy and instead of saying a personal prayer to God for him, I said "In that name of Jesus, you are healed!!!" and then the guy stopped shaking and got up off the ground as if he was never there in the first place. Do I believe that it can happen? Hell yeah....do I have the faith that it will happen, not quite, unfortunately.
If you're going to make any claims of supernatural healing, then you'll have to provide a medical doctor's diagnosis of the claimed healing before the attempt at healing, then provide a medical doctor's diagnosis after the attempt.

Do you have this?

If you do, congratulations, you can claim the Million Dollar Challenge from the James Randi foundation.

I hope you don't tell people to not go to a doctor afterwards because they are now healed, you should be held legally liable if that is the case.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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