I will debate any atheist on here
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14-02-2015, 07:46 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2015 10:22 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(14-02-2015 07:25 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 01:35 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  So, let me summarize:
-You have just enough faith to produce a McDonalds sign Laugh out load and place your hands on a person having a seizure just as they come out of it. Facepalm
-You don’t have enough faith to heal children in a hospital. Consider

I think that is a fair assessment of things Yes

I never thought we’d agree on anything. Thumbsup

(14-02-2015 07:25 PM)‘Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 01:35 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  According to you these are “miracles” (the laws of nature are suspended) even though the preponderance of evidence points to randomness of daily occurring events.

There is no such thing as “randomness”...nothing “just happens”...everything is planned Big Grin

Unsupported assertion. However if this were true the planner would be one cruel and incompetent mofo.

(14-02-2015 07:25 PM)‘Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 01:35 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  (What you aren’t divulging is just how many times you have prayed and nothing happened. Undoubtedly you’ll wave those off for “godly reasons”.)

Because I don't pray to God FOR things...I pray to God for what I already have. Fortunately, I’ve been blessed these past 3 years...and while I do yearn for more, when the time is right, guess who I will be talking to???

Well that’s a load of bullshit. You prayed for a McDonald’s sign for a sign and over some poor guy having a seizure. At least be consistent in your delusions.

(14-02-2015 07:25 PM)‘Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 01:35 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Why don’t you conduct an experiment, let’s call it a trial instead, the word experiment has too much of a sciency connotation that I know you abhor. Go up to every amputee you see and lay your hands on them and say “In that name of Jesus, you are healed!!!" where they regrow their limb then get back to us with your results, we’ll wait. Drinking Beverage

Its funny how you want me to conduct a "trial" to put God to the test for something that would be deemed completely unnatural...when you can't even perform a test and get results for things that are supposed to be considered natural.

When you can go in a lab and create life from nonlife (you know, actual science), then I will be glad to go in a hospital and heal an amputee.

OK, we’re making progress here. You seem to understand that God cannot do anything unnatural. This of course begs the question, if God has to work within the Natural then why not skip the unnecessary mumbo-jumbo and just call the whole thing Nature? Big Grin

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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14-02-2015, 08:19 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(14-02-2015 10:23 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 08:39 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  The guy was shaking before I said the prayer, and he stopped after I said the prayer, point blank, period. Now, this is just one of the brute facts in life...the guy was shaking before...and he stopped immediately after..plain and simple...you can call it what you want to call it. I am calling it how I see it, and that is that my prayers were answered by the living God.

Nope, nothing here about Laying of the Hands Consider
Is there anyway Call_of_the_Ronald here could be mistaken? Any way this might have been a coincidence? Any possible way the man was entering the postictal phase of the seizure? ANY FUCKING WAY AT ALL?

[Image: 07ed6afdcb0ffeb6606b16bf51d3cf74.jpg]

By your ignorant statement you do two things:
1. You belittle every first responder, paramedic, EMT member that walks the earth and
2. You promote a dangerous misunderstanding to anyone who you tell this story to and believes you. Because now these gullible people will try to replicate your “miracle” instead of offering the proper FIRST AID help.



(14-02-2015 08:39 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  As far as Children's Hospital is concerned...that did cross my mind...for example, I thought about how I would have felt if I laid hands on the guy and instead of saying a personal prayer to God for him, I said "In that name of Jesus, you are healed!!!" and then the guy stopped shaking and got up off the ground as if he was never there in the first place. Do I believe that it can happen? Hell yeah....do I have the faith that it will happen, not quite, unfortunately.

Your flights of fantasy would be funnier if they didn’t have real life negative consequences.

Absolutely, I asked earlier to COTW and he didn't respond. Did he tell this guy to go to the doctor to get a medical exam to determine his actual medical condition or did he tell him to not go to the doctor? I think he should have ethical and legal responsibility to tell this person to immediately go to the doctor and continue taking any medication if his condition is real. This is where a person's delusions hurt people and he should have some restraint about leading people to believe in fakery instead of actual medical experts.

I will reiterate this again, unless you have a medical doctor's diagnosis before and after an alleged faith healing all you have is a claim, a claim that can literally cost someone their life, this is WRONG! Faith healing is a scam and you should never seek to take the place of an actual doctor because you will harm people with this nonsense!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-02-2015, 10:22 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(14-02-2015 07:29 PM)pablo Wrote:  Humans are part of nature, we are not supernatural, nor devine. Nature does not "figure it out" like humans approach a problem. Nature does not have human intelligence.
The natural world has no need to be in a hurry, it has a much longer lifespan than humans.

We have eyes for vision, which is something that (on your view) was needed for a better survival rates....if that is not "figuring it out", I don't know what is.
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14-02-2015, 10:29 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(14-02-2015 07:34 PM)pablo Wrote:  After reading your replies in this post, you must be one of two things CotW.
Incredibly stupid, or utterly and willfully ignorant.

You left out tall, dark, and handsome Thumbsup
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14-02-2015, 10:34 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(14-02-2015 07:13 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 12:33 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Nope. I prayed, then immediately put my hand in my pocket and there they were.

Hah! Explain that! Obviously a miracle.

Simply no other explanation.

*Godfather voice* "A man that does not check his pockets first for misplaced keys is not a reasonable man".

Laugh out load

Aw shucks, that's so sweet of you Blush

[Image: quote-the-reasonable-man-adapts-himself-...266332.jpg]

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14-02-2015, 10:37 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(14-02-2015 07:46 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Unsupported assertion. However if this were true the planner would be one cruel and incompetent mofo.

If it is all part of the planner's plan, how can the planner be incompetent? Makes no sense.

(14-02-2015 07:46 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Well that’s a load of bullshit. You prayed for a McDonald’s sign for a sign and over some poor guy having a seizure. At least be consistent in your delusions.

Apparently you lack basic reading comprehension skills. I said FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS I haven't prayed for anything, but I when I do pray, I thank God for all that I DO have...do you see that? 3 years? The McDonald's incident happened in 07 (as I mentioned), which is beyond the 3 years that I was referring to when I DID ask for something.

See, that is what happens when you are so quick to attack, reading comprehension goes right out the door, doesn't it?

(14-02-2015 07:46 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  OK, we’re making progress here. You seem to understand that God cannot do anything unnatural. This of course begs the question, if God has to work within the Natural then why not skip the unnecessary mumbo-jumbo and just call the whole thing Nature? Big Grin

I worship God that can work within the realms of nature, and can also work beyond the realms of nature.

Holy crap I haven't had that easy of a refutation in a long time on here.
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14-02-2015, 10:51 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(14-02-2015 10:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Aw shucks, that's so sweet of you Blush

Smile
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14-02-2015, 10:53 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2015 09:05 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
COTW, you have a blindspot for what constitutes causality.

No need to be embarrassed, it is a common problem and has persisted throughout recorded history. Let me try and clarify for you your erroneous thinking by recounting a bit of history, a parable if you will...

Sobek the crocodile God of the Egyptians
[Image: 1.1260915379.sobek.jpg]

The Egyptians who built their mighty cities, Aswan, Luxor, Thebes, Memphis on the Nile River depended completely on the life-giving waters. Not enough water and their crop fields would die, no crops, no food, no food, certain death.

They observed that year after year the crocodiles arrived with the rising flood waters. Unbeknownst to them, 4000 miles to the South, the wet season had begun over the vastness of the African Continent. Rivulets fed into creeks, creeks into streams, streams into the Blue and White Nile Rivers and they in turn into the Nile, the longest river on Earth.

Rising waters and crocodiles. Crocodiles and rising waters. AHA! THE CROCODILES WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RISING WATERS! Crocs came, water came...obvious no?

The Egyptians confused cause and effect and in this case it is easy to see how this happened.

Multiple times now you have made similar errors, unable to distinguish causality. I know you want it to be the crocodile that brings the waters but if you look closely you’ll see that you have it backwards. The crocs only come when the waters rise.

Hope to see you apply today’s lesson in your future observations.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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14-02-2015, 10:58 PM
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
1) An un evidenced, unverifiable God possesses certain presupposed attributes as found in religious propaganda, folklore and literature
2) It is impossible for any presupposed un evidenced entity to attain any verifiable attributes without the intervention of a creative entity
3) Overwhelming evidence indicates that humans create and compose propaganda, folklore and literature having to do with all gods.

Therefore a creative entity superior to all presupposed gods exists, and that entity is man.

man created god in his image.

God constructs....the history exposes the lies..

Romulus
Mythology has always fascinated me. When you research mythology, you find the common strains, a rhythm, a philosophical skeletal system where the “hero god” is constructed, and the same system is used time and time again. It is almost as if one borrowed from another throughout time. It is impossible to ignore the implication of systematic fabrication. The jesus story, however, was not original. The entire story seems to have been plagiarized in bits and pieces, and sometimes blatantly intact, from ancient god/man mythology passed down by Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Persian cultures.

The list is long, from Horus in 3000 BCE Egypt all the way to jesus, but I will focus on just one…Romulus 771 BCE. In Plutarch’s biography of Romulus, the founder of Rome, we are told he was the son of god, born of a virgin; an attempt is made to kill him as a baby, and he is saved, and raised by a poor family, hailed as King, and killed by the conniving elite; that he rises from the dead, appears to a friend to tell the good news to his people, and ascends to heaven to rule from on high. Sound familiar? Just like Jesus.

Plutarch also tells us about annual public ceremonies that were still being formed, which celebrated the day Romulus ascended to heaven. The story goes as follows: at the end of his life, amid rumors he was murdered by conspiracy of the Senate, the sun went dark, and Romulus’s body vanished. The people wanted to search for him but the Senate told them not to, “for he had risen to join the gods”. Most went away happy, hoping for good things from their new god, but “some doubted”. Soon after, Proculus, a close friend of Romulus, reported that he met Romulus “on the road” between Rome and a nearby town and asked him, “why have you abandoned us?”, To which Romulus replied that he had been a God all along but had come down to earth and become incarnate to establish a great kingdom, and now had to return to his home in heaven. Then Romulus told his friend to tell the Romans that if they are virtuous they will have all worldly power (Carrier 56).

COTW, does any of this ring any bells for you? You do realize this story predates Jesus by 800 years right? Fabricators of religion borrow from previous religions Man/God/hero constructs and have all the way back to 3000 B.C.E.

So the fact that the jesus son of god myth story has clearly been plagiarized from older Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Persian cultures, coupled with the fact that no one who wrote of Jesus actually knew him should make a thinking person take a pause, and reflect on the basis of their faith.

In regards to my posit; paragraph three speaks about the ceremony celebrating Romulus's ascension actually going on at the time, so he is a witness, unlike the lack of witnesses in the NT of jesus. More importantly the tale of Romulus itself though was widely attested as pre-christian: in Romulus (27-28), Plutarch, though writing c. 80-120 CE, is certainly recording a long established Roman tale and custom, and his sources are unmistakenly pre-christian: Cicero, Laws 1.3, Republic 2.10; Livy, From the founding of the city 1.16.2-8 (1.3-1.16 relating the whole story of Romulus); Ovid, Fasti 2.491-512 and Metamorphoses 14.805-51; and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities 2.63.3 (1.171-2.65 relating the whole story of Romulus); a later reference: Cassius Dio, Roman History 56.46.2. The story's antiquity was even acknowledged by christians: Tertullian, Apology 21.

So as you can see, before christianity was even beginning to be fabricated, the story of Romulus was solidly incorporated into the Roman culture. So it would be a false and disingenuous posit to suggest that the story of Romulus was fabricated after jesus, and based on jesus, when it fact it is the exact opposite. It is also false to say it was interpolations (besides the fact it is all an obvious made up fabrication) as interpolations are additions to writings to make them seem more in line with whatever view the forger wishes to support after the fact. Conjecture? No, it was actually pre-christian, and as I provided above, easy to find within respectable writers from differing times and places. If Plutarch was the only one to write of it, OR he and the other writers were all writing about some "god" named Romulus from 800 years ago, and were writing it after jesus, then you could absolutely draw a correlation to the posit that the story of Romulus was based on jesus, or that it was fabricated to throw suspicion on the jesus story, sadly the facts do not reflect that.

at the end of a long list of hero god constructs lies jesus Rolleyes

and then....

In the first century of the common era, there appeared at the eastern and of the Mediterranean a remarkable religious leader who taught the worship of one true God and declared that religion meant not the sacrifice of beasts but the practice of charity and piety and the shunning of hatred and enmity. He was said to have worked miracles of goodness, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. His exemplary life led some of his followers to claim he was a son of God, though he caught himself the son of a man. Accused of sedition against Rome, he was arrested. After his death, his disciples claimed he had risen from the dead, appeared to them alive, and then ascended to heaven. Who was this teacher and wonderworker? His name was Appollonius of Tyana; he died about 98 CE, and his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus’s Life of Appolonius. Comparative mythology scholar Joseph campbell wrote in his book “the hero with 1000 faces”, both Apollonius and Jesus are examples of individuals who shared similar hero stories, along with Krishna, Buddha and Romulus. The followers of Apollonius believed he was the true son of God, and that Jesus was a fraud.

then when you look at Romulus, 800 years BEFORE jesus, and you see the exact same hero god construct....ah, isn't mythology fun?

Big Grin

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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14-02-2015, 11:05 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2015 11:26 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: I will debate any atheist on here
(14-02-2015 10:37 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  If it is all part of the planner's plan, how can the planner be incompetent? Makes no sense.

Before we head down this dead end how about supporting your initial assertion that everything happens for a reason.

(14-02-2015 10:37 PM)‘Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 07:46 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Well that’s a load of bullshit. You prayed for a McDonald’s sign for a sign and over some poor guy having a seizure. At least be consistent in your delusions.

Apparently you lack basic reading comprehension skills. I said FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS I haven't prayed for anything, but I when I do pray, I thank God for all that I DO have...do you see that? 3 years? The McDonald's incident happened in 07 (as I mentioned), which is beyond the 3 years that I was referring to when I DID ask for something.

See, that is what happens when you are so quick to attack, reading comprehension goes right out the door, doesn’t it?

Go ahead and back peddle as fast as possible from your ridiculous stories. I don’t blame you after the spanking you’ve been handed. Laugh out load Bet you wish you’d never brought those up huh?

(14-02-2015 10:37 PM)‘Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 07:46 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  OK, we’re making progress here. You seem to understand that God cannot do anything unnatural. This of course begs the question, if God has to work within the Natural then why not skip the unnecessary mumbo-jumbo and just call the whole thing Nature? Big Grin

I worship God that can work within the realms of nature, and can also work beyond the realms of nature.

Holy crap I haven't had that easy of a refutation in a long time on here.

You contradict yourself sparky, either he can’t work outside Nature therfore cannot cure the amputees OR he can, as you now state, and nothing should be impossible for your sky-daddy. You know what they say about eating cake and having it too. Thumbsup

Talk about easy refutations, this is like debating with a child.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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