"I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
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18-08-2017, 08:02 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 09:33 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  False equivalence. They didn't take up arms to defend the right to own another person; that was not the crux of the Revolutionary War.
Moving the goal posts. The assertion being replied to was that they "didn't take up arms against their own nation". They, in fact, did. Their reasons for so doing are irrelevant as regards the basic statement.


Quote:I think that erecting statues of traitors is stupid.
I think erecting statues of people, for anything other than artistic expression, is stupid. Waste of time, money, property, and resources.


Quote:It puzzles me why atheists who labor under the social opprobrium imposed by a Bronze-Age religion, who scoff at the crucifixes of a representative of a maleficent god, should defend further symbols of oppression simply because they are more historically tangible. That historicity is all the more reason to withhold respect.
I don't advocate burning down the Sistine Chapel, even though it symbolizes the Church that implemented the Crusades and the Inquisition.

Not even as an atheist.

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18-08-2017, 08:12 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(18-08-2017 07:33 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(17-08-2017 08:32 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So you don't think so? Not getting the point. A case of statues for Paul and Babe are right in there.
What is thought of when people build and see these statues?
And what about Jesus and religious iconography on public spaces or so large it's visible wide-ranging?
I don't get if you think I'm saying they make something true or real by putting mythological statues... they embody ideas and ideals the builders want people to see and think of.

Of course they do. As do the names of streets, towns, and buildings, as do murals, as do commercial products put on the market, and as do laws and regulations.

Some of these things make a big difference in how people are treated (laws), others not so much (statues).

Quote:Bunyan is that American folk hero showing the great American mam mythos.

Atlas can be seen many ways depending on a political/literary bent but could just be a simple toss to mythology in a on base view.

And the Christian shit is all about pushing the view to it being what it is. And their caring is clear in how made they get when someone says you need other religion messages equally there or satanic ones.
I notice you didn't comment on "Portlandia".

Quote:And the Confederate ones have the lasting showcase to people too. And it was a big deal for those people to relive their wanted past in the Era of Birth of a Nation and the kkks height when these statues were made, with some having notable histories of parades to erect the statues some being carried in by low class workers that happened to be black... and when I hear some like Trump proclaim removing a statue is easing history, I think the history of its creation as a statue is the only history lost. The generals and war aren't being harmed on that memory regard at all.

OK, so take down all the Confederate statues. No problem.

But also take down all the other statues of people who set up this nation from the beginning in such a way that the Confederacy was inevitable.
What does the connection last between those statue building.

If the Confederate ones weren't deliberately put up in the aftermath of reconstruction in the Jim crow racial strife in some old homage to the failed nations warriors, they probably could be equal. But those statues are designed with those points which aren't what the also slave owners compromise signers statues salute.

I glossed over the few I had no clue what they were. But I also don't see how all statues aren't artistic expression.

And I saw a report that people analyzed all the government in D.C. statues/monuments/plaques and even there 3 times as many are for confederates than for black individuals. Or it might be from a specific area, it's an area where states get to pick who goes there that's at least notable as causing that imbalance.

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18-08-2017, 08:14 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(18-08-2017 12:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Not so much. The fact is, the Civil War would never have happened if slavery was not the main issue. The documents that were drawn up in S. Carolina, and other states, specifically say it was about the slavery. It was an essential part of their economic life. Maintaining slavery (which at the time had been outlawed in some other countries) was out of step with the times.

Isn't it funny, then, that Lincoln didn't get around to freeing the slaves until the war had been going on for almost two years?
I mean, if slavery was the main issue, as you say.

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18-08-2017, 08:17 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(18-08-2017 02:58 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Trump didn't mention Washington and Jefferson because he wants their statues taken down or because he wants the Lee and other Confederate statues taken down. He mentioned them because he was looking for arguments NOT to take them down.
LoL. Thank you, Impulse; somebody finally noticed.

I guess I'm going to have to be less subtle with my sarcasm when it comes to hot button issues. Live and learn. Tongue

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18-08-2017, 08:20 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(18-08-2017 08:14 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(18-08-2017 12:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Not so much. The fact is, the Civil War would never have happened if slavery was not the main issue. The documents that were drawn up in S. Carolina, and other states, specifically say it was about the slavery. It was an essential part of their economic life. Maintaining slavery (which at the time had been outlawed in some other countries) was out of step with the times.

Isn't it funny, then, that Lincoln didn't get around to freeing the slaves until the war had been going on for almost two years?
I mean, if slavery was the main issue, as you say.

Slavery was the main reason the south seceded, technically Lincoln didn't have to try to force them back in, leading to war. Though he did win the presidency fair and square so it's hard to blame him for doing so! So yes slavery was the main reason for the war.
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18-08-2017, 08:21 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(18-08-2017 04:16 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Well, it's a good thing I didn't say that, then. If Washington committed treason against America, you might have a point; but treason is nation-specific, as are honorary statues. Washington's treason, against the UK, was not by American law treason.
There was no "American law" when Washington committed his treason, because there was no sovereign nation of "America". Washington's act of treason was to establish American sovereignty, in what we would call today a "break-away" republic of the UK.

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18-08-2017, 08:27 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
If I follow Thump's point I think his issue isn't that GW wasn't a traitor but that he wasn't a traitor to that thing that went on to become known as the USA, and a statue shouldn't go up in the US to someone who committed treason to the US. (Not trying to speak for Thump, just reading through the thread and understand the different POVs) That said, Thump earlier did say GW didn't take up arms against his own nation, which is certainly not correct. And he would have taken an oath to his nation every bit as much as Lee did.
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18-08-2017, 08:30 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
There is this.

And this.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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18-08-2017, 08:33 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(18-08-2017 08:02 PM)Dr H Wrote:  I don't advocate burning down the Sistine Chapel, even though it symbolizes the Church that implemented the Crusades and the Inquisition.




#sigh
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18-08-2017, 08:36 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(18-08-2017 08:30 PM)Dr H Wrote:  There is this.

And this.

And this ...




#sigh
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