"I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
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16-08-2017, 09:06 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(16-08-2017 01:45 PM)Dr H Wrote:  I'm with the prez on this one. Washington was a slave holder; we should take down his statues, too. Also those of Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and the other 20-30 Founding Fathers who signed a document declaring "all men are created equal" while keeping their fellow men in bondage.

Better still, let's stop putting up statues of dead people and use the money to support food banks and community clinics, eh?

Please show me an image of the statue erected of George Washington that honors his owning of slaves. He's still the first president. But...

Our first vice-president and second president John Adams didn't own any slaves, so a statue of him would be ok then? He also defended the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre. His son John Quincy Adams (I believe he was the 5th president), used a book of law to take the oath of office instead of a bible and he never owned slaves either. Both felt the practice was abhorrent.

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17-08-2017, 06:40 AM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
Sweet the Adams and Hamilton federalists will reign in the books of none slave owning law boys. Well that's part of the historical pic.

i still support the artists and craftsmen that create statues. i dont like the use money elsewhere lines because art funds arent some notion to get revoked.

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17-08-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
The hard right is very concerned about all this. It might mean they'd lose their privileged position.
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17-08-2017, 08:06 AM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(16-08-2017 08:59 PM)BryanS Wrote:  And Lincoln thought that every African American should leave the country and go back to Africa after the war, that racist asshole.

So what? We can't expect historical figures to elevate themselves above the mores of their era in all things. We acknowledge those leaders who manage to overcome just one thing that moved their era into the future. I doubt we would find anyone pure enough to meet the impossible standard of embracing every value of our culture 200 years after their time. I highly doubt, for instance, we will find figures in history embracing acceptance of homosexuality--we're not even fully there yet today, let alone any time in the past.

Not the point, the point is the Revolutionary war was not about slavery, the Civil War was. Progress takes time? No shit. But when that progress is made, you put our new understanding into context. You don't leave up the promotions of the past that were harmful to others. You can only relegate those events to museums.

History should not be glossed over nobody is arguing that. Our new understanding requires better context, the placement and meaning back then do not fit today thus need to be relegated to a new and better understanding and context.

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17-08-2017, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2017 11:29 AM by Grasshopper.)
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
I'm surprised at the amount of vitriol in this thread. I wouldn't have said "I agree with the prez" -- but I basically agree with Dr. H's point. And if you disagree with it, it hardly deserves a "Fuck you!" response. This is not a black and white issue. Washington and Jefferson were not saints, and Lee was not a Hitler or a Stalin.

It would be nice if we could disagree without all the foaming at the mouth.
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17-08-2017, 11:29 AM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
Yes, it probably is George Washington down the road.

Because it is more important to argue over this shit then it is to face the facts of the economy, the suicide of Europe, the problem of illegal immigration, the continuing terrorist activity driven by extremist religions around the world and at home, the changing climate to which we must adapt, the drug epidemic, the gang-driven crime, the apathy of the young concerning their future as responsible and strong adults capable of contributing to society, the ruination of our health care by the drive to socialized medicine and the failure of the SCOTUS to agree that The Slants and The Redskins must be forced to change their names.

All ethnic groups and races have been enslaved. All ethnic groups and races have been involved in the slave trade. Many have kidnapped and sold human beings who are among the same ethnic group and race. There are more human beings enslaved now than in the past.

There are many things that offend me, but because I am white I am not allowed to promote my offense. There are many things that offend me, but because I am a working person I am not allowed to promote my offense.

We can thank Barack Obama directly for helping to divide us into classes of victims who need the government to address their wants and needs. He was following the lead of Progressives since Woodrow Wilson. It is all turning out as planned.

Maybe if the Progressives had not attempted to provide cradle to grave entitlements, most of our citizens would have employment and be too busy living fulfilling lives to worry so damned much about the past.

Oh shit, am I a racist or an elitist? Well...I am white, middle-aged, self-employed member of the top 10% in my tax bracket. Maybe I am... Maybe I should just shut up and sit down and accept my sins...

This is a much broader issue with a much broader mission and I think our country is in deep shit.

-Jeanne

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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17-08-2017, 11:48 AM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 11:29 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  Yes, it probably is George Washington down the road.

Because it is more important to argue over this shit then it is to face the facts of the economy, the suicide of Europe, the problem of illegal immigration, the continuing terrorist activity driven by extremist religions around the world and at home, the changing climate to which we must adapt, the drug epidemic, the gang-driven crime, the apathy of the young concerning their future as responsible and strong adults capable of contributing to society, the ruination of our health care by the drive to socialized medicine and the failure of the SCOTUS to agree that The Slants and The Redskins must be forced to change their names.

All ethnic groups and races have been enslaved. All ethnic groups and races have been involved in the slave trade. Many have kidnapped and sold human beings who are among the same ethnic group and race. There are more human beings enslaved now than in the past.

There are many things that offend me, but because I am white I am not allowed to promote my offense. There are many things that offend me, but because I am a working person I am not allowed to promote my offense.

We can thank Barack Obama directly for helping to divide us into classes of victims who need the government to address their wants and needs. He was following the lead of Progressives since Woodrow Wilson. It is all turning out as planned.

Maybe if the Progressives had not attempted to provide cradle to grave entitlements, most of our citizens would have employment and be too busy living fulfilling lives to worry so damned much about the past.

Oh shit, am I a racist or an elitist? Well...I am white, middle-aged, self-employed member of the top 10% in my tax bracket. Maybe I am... Maybe I should just shut up and sit down and accept my sins...

This is a much broader issue with a much broader mission and I think our country is in deep shit.

-Jeanne

I'm a Democrat, so I obviously don't agree with everything in this post, but I agree with some of it -- particularly the final statement. America has some deep-seated problems, and we're not going to solve them by taking some statues down. The first step in solving them is a very difficult one: people on opposite sides of the political fence (both in Congress and in the general public) need to respect each other, talk to each other (without shouting), and learn to compromise. I believe this can happen, but I'm not holding my breath.
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17-08-2017, 11:54 AM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
Not holding my breath either...

I am a Democrat who switched parties to vote AGAINST Donald Trump. I will be switching back, but not because I like the Left. My state is "Progressive Maryland" and to work to make sense of our government, one must be Democrat. I remain a Conservative Libertarian no matter whom I vote for....just try to find the right candidate out of the ones we are given.

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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17-08-2017, 11:57 AM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 11:54 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  Not holding my breath either...

I am a Democrat who switched parties to vote AGAINST Donald Trump. I will be switching back, but not because I like the Left. My state is "Progressive Maryland" and to work to make sense of our government, one must be Democrat. I remain a Conservative Libertarian no matter whom I vote for....just try to find the right candidate out of the ones we are given.

Yes, that is certainly another big part of the problem: of all the millions of people in this country, the best two candidates we could find were Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump? Really??? We've got to be doing something wrong.
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17-08-2017, 12:14 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 11:57 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Yes, that is certainly another big part of the problem: of all the millions of people in this country, the best two candidates we could find were Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump? Really??? We've got to be doing something wrong.

How much of this stems from the fact that many young minds can tell you all about the mole on Kim Kardashian's ass, but don't know who the current president and vice president are? Ask them about Kanye, Bruce/Caitlyn, or any of the other shit that constantly blasts through Entertainment Tonight or TMZ and they'll be able to have an "intelligent" conversation. But ask them their thoughts on entitlement reform or the fact that our social security coffers are almost bone dry and you get a deer in the headlights look.

I'm lamenting the loss of adequate education about things that matter and I'm not sure there's really anything that can be done at this point. We're headed on a fast track to Idiocracy. Brawndo anyone? I hear it has electrolytes!!!

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