"I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
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17-08-2017, 06:40 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(16-08-2017 06:35 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  So again, as with Jefferson, it seems they didn't like what they were doing, but couldn't get out of it because of politics.
That's always a convenient excuse.

I'm sure Jefferson was boffing Sally Hemings for purely political reasons.

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Dr H

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17-08-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(16-08-2017 09:06 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Please show me an image of the statue erected of George Washington that honors his owning of slaves. He's still the first president. But...
Sorry moms, but now you're being silly.
Show me an image of the statue of Jefferson Davis that honors his owning slaves.

Quote:Our first vice-president and second president John Adams didn't own any slaves, so a statue of him would be ok then?
You tell me.
Frankly, I'm not a big fan of statues as historical monuments, period.
As I've said, I think the efforts could be better used.

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17-08-2017, 06:48 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 08:06 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  History should not be glossed over nobody is arguing that. Our new understanding requires better context, the placement and meaning back then do not fit today thus need to be relegated to a new and better understanding and context.

We are 100% in agreement on that.

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Dr H

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17-08-2017, 06:55 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 10:36 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm surprised at the amount of vitriol in this thread. I wouldn't have said "I agree with the prez"

Yeah, yeah, I know . . . it's that "gadfly" thing. Smile

Quote: -- but I basically agree with Dr. H's point. And if you disagree with it, it hardly deserves a "Fuck you!" response. This is not a black and white issue. Washington and Jefferson were not saints, and Lee was not a Hitler or a Stalin.

It would be nice if we could disagree without all the foaming at the mouth.

I appreciate your support, Grasshopper.
But no worries about a few "fuck yous" here and there; it far from the worst thing I've had flung at me on occasion. Wink


I will say that I think the Trump administration is going to be a very difficult time for the irony-challenged.

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Dr H

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17-08-2017, 07:01 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 11:29 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  We can thank Barack Obama directly for helping to divide us into classes of victims who need the government to address their wants and needs. He was following the lead of Progressives since Woodrow Wilson. It is all turning out as planned.
I was really digging your post, up until this line from Glenn Beck turned up.

Really, no one person is to blame for the ills of American society.
The causes go back to our roots, and we all bear responsibility for accepting them unchallenged for so long.

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Dr H

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17-08-2017, 07:04 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 12:17 PM)TSG Wrote:  What the fuck is a "Kanye"? Huh

He must've meant "Citizen Kanye". Big Grin

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Dr H

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17-08-2017, 07:06 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 01:02 PM)Rockblossom Wrote:  Have I mentioned how much I hate both political parties? Weeping

Spot on post, RB. Thumbsup

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Dr H

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17-08-2017, 07:10 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 01:32 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Is that what you remember them for?
If it were, I would be one of the few who did.

We should remember them for the sum total of their attitudes and works, and
not just for the ones we happen to agree with.

Quote:A statue honoring Stalin for his work industrializing the USSR necessarily invites discussion about his hand in the murder of millions.
Case in point.

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Dr H

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17-08-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 01:49 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I had a long reply, but....grrrr...

Times do change, an example might be that we don't really celebrate Columbus Day so much anymore. When I was a kid it was huge but now, as a light of history has been shined on him, people have slowly backed away from him and honestly rightfully so.
Very true. Although as far as I know, there haven't been any spontaneous tearings-down of Columbus statues (although there have been some proposals to do so).

Quote:Part of the problem with the issue of slavery was that after the civil war and following Lincoln's assassination in an effort to pander and rebuild the south, many of the laws going through congress that would force equality were abandoned. It was like.."ok, we've done enough they're free". Just a month after the end of the civil war, the lives of black people were very similar to those under slavery. Sure, they had to be paid a wage, but those wages were often offset by food, lodgings etc. They might be allowed a plot of land to plant vegetables or keep chickens, but only if the owner of the land allowed it (usually their lodgings was simply their shack and that tiny plot it sat on) -- which they now had to pay rent for. The reparations they were promised didn't happen because congress was uninterested in keeping that bargain. Meanwhile Lincoln's successor Andrew Johnson reestablished a new good ol boy's network but appointing governors in the former confederate states that were of the same confederate mindset.

Black people couldn't just leave. Most were prevented of travel and if not employed could just be arrested and fined for new vagrancy laws. They were precluded from buying their own land unless they had the cash in hand to do so. and then only of the state they resided in allowed. it. Children could be taken and forced to apprentice to cover debts owed by parents/family members...What debt? Living expenses after the civil war if the crop failed.

In northern areas because of astroturfing thanks to Jefferson Davis funneling money into northern newspapers during the civil war building a network of anti-war sentiment (believing he could persuade the north to just give up), blacks who never had huge issues in the northern states were suddenly being treated like second class citizens there too. Then there was the rise of klan, which people like Frederick Douglass warned about and his warnings fell on death ears, spreading like a cancer across the country.
What you -- correctly -- describe isn't simply the result of institutionalized racism, although it has that component. It's a function of the political stratification of society into "haves" and "have-nots". What happened to the former slaves after the Civil War also happened to poor white laborers (see the concept of "the company store"), and also to virtually every group of ethnically distinctive immigrants that migrated here over time, and who were exploited for cheap -- and too often expendable -- labor.

Quote:The civil war was just about slavery. You can read it in their constitution.
Really, it is more complex than that. But even were it not, that's beside the point of whether superficial actions like removing statues is anything but a rabble-rousing, feel-good waste of time and effort, while the real problems remain ignored, or even undiscovered.

Quote:The states overwhelmingly agreed that slavery was their number one reason for succession. What's really funny is that poor white people supported slavery because without the slaves they'd fall to the bottom of the social ladder, instead of being next to the bottom.

Our ideals to do change when we feel safe to accept change. It wasn't that long ago that being gay could land you in jail and now we're celebrating gay marriage. Maybe in time we will divorce ourselves from the hero worship of the past and see these people as flawed humans we all are.
Maybe; if we survive that long.

Quote:When I was a little kid I was taught in a history book that George Washington never told a lie. Christopher Columbus was a great guy who discovered America. Today, I think we've pretty much accepted both are false.
Indeed. We were also told that Mother Teresa was a saint. Fortunately, there was Christopher Hitchens to set us straight on that one.

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17-08-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 01:51 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  No one here is arguing in favor of an Orwellian memory-hole. Put those statues in a museum, where the context of their lives can be elucidated.
Sure, that could be one way to do it.
Except I don't think the folks with the ropes in Durham, NC, we really thinking about relocation to a museum.

Quote:Putting and keeping the Confederate statues on public land was and is a message to blacks that in some states, if the South rises again .... When the greatest deeds of their lives were in the defense of the Peculiar Institution, what honor do they merit?
Yeah, you're probably right. I know that every time I saw the Boot Monument in Saratoga Park it seemed like a message that the British were going to rise again and take beck the colonies. It's one reason I moved to the West Coast. Rolleyes

Quote:I've got no problem with remembering, but simple statues in public squares do not typically mention why those guys are notable.
Actually most of them do usually have a commemorative plaque somewhere in the vicinity, explaining the purpose of the monument. One could always change the plaques, adding explanatory verbiage.

Quote:They're notable for their treason committed in defense of the indefensible. And keeping their monuments on public property reminds those whom these generals fought to subjugate that such subjugation was -- and perhaps still is, given that the monument is still standing -- worth fighting and dying for.
Perhaps for some. I dare say that the vast majority of people who walked past these statues for the past 50 or 100 years didn't even know who the statue represented, much less the story behind it.

Quote:In short, the excerpt you've quoted is a fancy tu quoque ... except that those twelve presidents did not take up arms against their own nation.
Take that up with Joseph McGill; the words are his; not mine.

And in at least one of those twelve cases, you're wrong: Washington did take up arms against his own nation -- that's what the revolution was all about.

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Dr H

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