"I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
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17-08-2017, 07:55 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 02:51 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Here's a graph of when the majority of Confederate statues were erected, during the Jim Crow and the rise of the KKK. These aren't historical markers. They're part of a political agenda. You'll also notice there is a slight rise during the 1960's when Martin Luther King Jr and those uppity black people were protesting. Most of those statues are politically motivated.
Most statues of politicians and military personnel are politically motivated.

If you look at when most Revolutionary War monuments were erected you'' see a similar hump over, and perhaps a little to the left of the first big hump in your chart.

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17-08-2017, 07:56 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 06:46 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 09:06 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Please show me an image of the statue erected of George Washington that honors his owning of slaves. He's still the first president. But...
Sorry moms, but now you're being silly.
Show me an image of the statue of Jefferson Davis that honors his owning slaves.

I was in part being silly, but to answer your question about the statues to Jefferson Davis...All of them are about the right to own slaves, because that was what he believed his purpose was. He was angry when Robert E Lee surrendered. He still encouraged good southerners to continue fighting. He believed even after reconstruction began that slavery could be restored, even after he jumped bail and moved to Canada. When he returned to the US (after being pardoned) he did tend to keep a bit quiet about slavery. In 1880-1 he would attend what was then called, "lost cause ceremonies" where the revisionist white wash of history began to take shape (the civil war wasn't really about slavery). I'm sure you can understand the psychology behind that kind of thinking.

"My own convictions as to negro slavery are strong. It has its evils and abuses...We recognize the negro as God and God's Book and God's Laws, in nature, tell us to recognize him - our inferior, fitted expressly for servitude...You cannot transform the negro into anything one-tenth as useful or as good as what slavery enables them to be."
~Jefferson Davis 1861

"African slavery, as it exists in the United States, is a moral, a social, and a political blessing."
~Davis 1860



(17-08-2017 06:46 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 09:06 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Our first vice-president and second president John Adams didn't own any slaves, so a statue of him would be ok then?
You tell me.
Frankly, I'm not a big fan of statues as historical monuments, period.
As I've said, I think the efforts could be better used.

I agree that efforts are better used. I have no issue with museums, I think we need more of them. I think we also need to be honest about history warts and all, and being honest about that history is letting go of things that we now do find offensive (like Columbus day).


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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17-08-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 03:08 PM)Dom Wrote:  All of us have flaws and do things that are just wrong, as did Washington and Jefferson.

Not all of us defend our flaws or try to force them onto others, as did Robert. E. Lee..

Um... you do realize that a lot of people in the Colonies remained loyal to the Crown, and didn't want a revolution? Without the colonial merchant gentry -- epitomized by people like Washington and Jefferson -- it never would have happened.

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17-08-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 03:37 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Honestly my only reason for ever wanting to visit the south would be for the civil war stuff.

I'm thinking you'd better do it soon, then.

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17-08-2017, 08:18 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 06:08 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 04:31 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Yes.... states rights to own slaves.
Self-determination was considered, by some, to include that, yes.
Along with a whole lot of other things.

As Joseph McGill pointed out at one point in his talk, people who join the military join for a variety of reasons: to defend their home against a perceived threat; because they are conscripted; as a means of supporting themselves or their families when they can't find work; as well as for a variety of moral reasons which may be either good or bad. A commemoration of a soldier or a battle doesn't necessarily commemorate everything the government behind his army supported.

Quote:It's important to realize that the majority of statues erected to the Confederate military were erected after 1900, during the Jim Crow and the rise of the KKK.
Most during the Jim Crow era, but true. So?

Most Revolutionary Way monuments were erected around that time,too -- in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, during the Victorian era's patriotic fervor that also gave us the Pledge of Allegiance, the push for an official national anthem, and hundreds of patriotic songs and plays, many of which would be considered offensive to one or another group today. Not coincidentally, this was also the era the first big "red scare", and the pushback by the elite of the gilded age against any attempt at worker organization -- with often fatal consequences.

People build monuments for a reason, and there is almost always an ulterior motivation behind it. The only really equitable solution I see is my original suggestion that we get rid of all of them, and use the resources that would have gone into creating them to try to better the lives of those who need it.

In 1913 at a dedication of a Confederate statue on the campus of Univ. North Carolina the speaker, a weathy tobacco manufacterer, Julian Carr said this:

“The present generation ... scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war, when the facts are, that their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South.”

Lets face it, these were statues dedicated to soldiers who faught to keep a large group of people enslaved. Yet there are suprisingly (or maybe not so suprising) few statues dedicated to the freeing of the slaves in the US. I've found a few and most all of them are not in the US. There's one in the West Indies. This one is in Barbados.

[Image: Bussa_statue.png]

There's a commemorative statue of Abraham Lincoln of the Emancipation Proclimation with a slave by his side but it's the usual white man helping out the black person scenario. There's no sense of autonomy for the figure next to Lincoln.

[Image: stock-photo-statue-of-abe-lincoln-freein...170219.jpg]

In 2016 here's an Emancipation statue that was still in the works in Virginia but I think funding is a problem.

[Image: Emancipation_Monument_design.jpg]

Now if this was a memorial for a Confederate soldier I bet somehow state government purse strings would loosen up pretty quickly.

And there's, of course, Martin Luther Kings memorials but when you consider the amount of suffering and dying that black people endured during slavery you'd think there's be more to commemorate this tragedy. But no, there really isn't. However, there are hundreds of statues dedicated to the glorious rebels of the South who were essentially traitors to the country. That amazes me.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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17-08-2017, 08:28 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 07:56 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(17-08-2017 06:46 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Sorry moms, but now you're being silly.
Show me an image of the statue of Jefferson Davis that honors his owning slaves.

I was in part being silly, but to answer your question about the statues to Jefferson Davis...All of them are about the right to own slaves, because that was what he believed his purpose was.
Well, people certainly are free to read that interpretation into the monuments; I've not seen any that explicitly stated such, though.

Just as I am free to read my interpretation into the monuments of Washington and Jefferson, which I see as selective remembrances, glossing over their hypocrisies.

And it wasn't only the fact that they owned slaves. Indians weren't granted citizenship in the land the European invaders stole from them until almost 100 years after the Declaration of Independence. Until 1856, in most states you needed to own property if you wanted to vote. Freed slaves -- of which there were more than a few prior to the Civil War -- couldn't legally vote until 1870. Women not until 1920.

All this according to laws instituted by men who signed a document stating "all men are created equal". What they really meant was "all white men of sufficient means to own property are created equal".

You don't think that's worth keeping in mind?

Quote:I'm sure you can understand the psychology behind that kind of thinking.
Yes, I do understand it.
Which is why it annoys me to see it recognized only selectively.


(17-08-2017 06:46 PM)Dr H Wrote:  You tell me.
Frankly, I'm not a big fan of statues as historical monuments, period.
As I've said, I think the efforts could be better used.

Quote:I agree that efforts are better used. I have no issue with museums, I think we need more of them. I think we also need to be honest about history warts and all, and being honest about that history is letting go of things that we now do find offensive (like Columbus day).
I agree about the "warts and all", which really was my main point.

I don't think we should just "let go", however, if it means sweeping things under the carpet just because they happen to embarrass us, or make us feel uncomfortable. History can't be erased, and pretending that it can isn't only foolish; it's dangerous.

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17-08-2017, 08:32 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 06:23 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 04:35 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The problem of that notion is with existence of statues or idolitry is that it normalizes and gives credence to those with ideas about the stuff that matters.

Um, yeah:

http://dguides.com/portland/attractions/...ia-statue/
https://www.treesofmystery.net/images/sl...abe-05.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5250/52617...68f4_b.jpg
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/...-troll.jpg
http://www.alaska.org/photos/gallery3/va...1396996217
So you don't think so? Not getting the point. A case of statues for Paul and Babe are right in there.

What is thought of when people build and see these statues?

And what about Jesus and religious iconography on public spaces or so large it's visible wide-ranging?

I don't get if you think I'm saying they make something true or real by putting mythological statues... they embody ideas and ideals the builders want people to see and think of.

Bunyan is that American folk hero showing the great American mam mythos.

Atlas can be seen many ways depending on a political/literary bent but could just be a simple toss to mythology in a on base view.

And the Christian shit is all about pushing the view to it being what it is. And their caring is clear in how made they get when someone says you need other religion messages equally there or satanic ones.

And the Confederate ones have the lasting showcase to people too. And it was a big deal for those people to relive their wanted past in the Era of Birth of a Nation and the kkks height when these statues were made, with some having notable histories of parades to erect the statues some being carried in by low class workers that happened to be black... and when I hear some like Trump proclaim removing a statue is easing history, I think the history of its creation as a statue is the only history lost. The generals and war aren't being harmed on that memory regard at all.

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17-08-2017, 08:42 PM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2017 09:05 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 08:18 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  And there's, of course, Martin Luther Kings memorials but when you consider the amount of suffering and dying that black people endured during slavery you'd think there's be more to commemorate this tragedy. But no, there really isn't.

There is, you silly duck. And if you're gonna visit DC, don't miss the U Street corridor. There's a couple more there. Best jazz in the city too.

[Image: NjsEs4Z.jpg]

We get Ben's Chili Bowl chili dogs and watch these guys watching us. Creepy motherfuckers.

[Image: pSE55IV.jpg]

Used to be a sign in Ben's Chili Bowl saying "Bill Cosby eats for free, everybody else pays." Hung there for 50 years. Grease-stained and everything. There's an urban legend that when the fire inspector cited the sign as a fire hazard, Ben stuck the violation notice on the sign until it peeled off a few days later. Bill Cosby no longer gets to eat for free. Shame, really. I mean for the sign, not Bill Cosby.

#sigh
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17-08-2017, 09:10 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 04:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(17-08-2017 01:56 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  He had more than hand in murder but discussion might be not pleasant given that Stalin is remember positively by about half of Russian population. Not really my concern but fact that Russians, greatest victims of mustached Georgian regime remembers him fondly makes me sad.

I wonder if that has to do with all the statues that were erected?
I think that it is mix of nostalgia and propaganda at fault there. Russia wa powerful under Stalin and for some it may be most important consideration.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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17-08-2017, 09:22 PM
RE: "I wonder, is it George Washington next week?"
(17-08-2017 08:28 PM)Dr H Wrote:  You tell me.
Frankly, I'm not a big fan of statues as historical monuments, period.

I agree about the "warts and all", which really was my main point.

I don't think we should just "let go", however, if it means sweeping things under the carpet just because they happen to embarrass us, or make us feel uncomfortable. History can't be erased, and pretending that it can isn't only foolish; it's dangerous.

This is why we need better history books and more museums, because this is where people especially children will learn about this. Rather than passing a statue in a park or by a courthouse that's just always been there without giving thought to meaning behind it all.

All men are created equal, but in the time of Thomas Jefferson, I don't think he believed it. I think he believed some were endowed by a creator but not all. We have to accept that.

Yet, today we have broadened his original intent to include the rights of all humanity -- men, women, children of all races can now celebrate those words. As our collective values change, we need to let go of old ideas and replace them with better ones.

This is why we no longer hold people like Columbus to such an incredible high esteem.

And we've survived that. We can survive the south moving and taking down some monuments. The locations will always remain, the history about what happened at those people.

History is all around us, if we care enough to look at it and learn.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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