Poll: Are ISIS just another radical sect of Islam, or are they the true representation of Islamic ideology?
Radical sect of Islam
They ARE Islam!
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20-08-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: ISIS
No dipshit, I call even liberal theists out on their PC crap. I call out atheists too when I think they are full of crap. All I did here was warn you not to get stuck on labels. You are right in saying ISIS is basing its actions on a holy book. But so was slavery and sexism and even homophobia justified through the bible by Christians, much less the barbarity of the Christian dark ages.

There is not one holy book, the Koran, the Bible, the OT or Reg Vedas that are the source of human morality. That may be where humans like to think they come from, but our morality is in our evolution. I don't even give atheists a pass if they think "atheist" will magically make an individual do good.

Religion and I do mean all religion, are artificial labels that reflect our evolutionary grouping. That grouping creates safety in numbers. The downside to it is that it far too often sets up an in group vs out group, and the worst part is that they base it on books of fantasy. But Islam itself did not invent bad use of logic.

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20-08-2014, 09:50 AM
RE: ISIS
(20-08-2014 09:40 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 08:16 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  


I'm more concerned with whether or not ISIS are a fundamental threat to us, not whether or not they 'represent' the consensus of Islam (and considering that their victims are mostly other Muslims, one has to wonder).

I cannot say based on my lack of knowledge what type of Christian is the better representative of Christianity. I would say that after the reformation, the whole doctrine of Christianity was spread out into all these different sects, and so there is not one complete sect of Christianity, as that would be silly, wouldn't it? I don't think it would be possible with all the contradictions.

However Islam is more of a political movement than a religion. That is why you can dissect the separate sects and designate one to be more of a complete Islamic following than another.

Also, in the quote, of course, ISIS claim the Muslims that they do kill aren't Muslims at all. I could say I'm a Muslim because I believe Muhammad to be Allah's last prophet, but because a Muslim is someone who follows the doctrine of Islam, I would have to commit the same atrocities certain types of Muslims commit to actually be practicing Islam.

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20-08-2014, 09:57 AM
RE: ISIS
(20-08-2014 09:50 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 09:40 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'm more concerned with whether or not ISIS are a fundamental threat to us, not whether or not they 'represent' the consensus of Islam (and considering that their victims are mostly other Muslims, one has to wonder).

I cannot say based on my lack of knowledge what type of Christian is the better representative of Christianity. I would say that after the reformation, the whole doctrine of Christianity was spread out into all these different sects, and so there is not one complete sect of Christianity, as that would be silly, wouldn't it? I don't think it would be possible with all the contradictions.

However Islam is more of a political movement than a religion. That is why you can dissect the separate sects and designate one to be more of a complete Islamic following than another.

Also, in the quote, of course, ISIS claim the Muslims that they do kill aren't Muslims at all. I could say I'm a Muslim because I believe Muhammad to be Allah's last prophet, but because a Muslim is someone who follows the doctrine of Islam, I would have to commit the same atrocities certain types of Muslims commit to actually be practicing Islam.

My point being that Shiite vs Sunni isn't much different than Catholics vs Protestants, and asking "Who is more Christian?" was just as pointless then as asking "Who is more Muslim?" is now...

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20-08-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: ISIS
(20-08-2014 08:37 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  So what you're saying is, if I started a religion based on a 1000 page book, containing (I'll choose a random majority) 750 pages of political orders involving how to kill and oppress women and non-Muslims, 250 pages on being slightly tolerant but still passively aggressive towards everyone else, and then go on to only choose to follow the 250 pages of the book, I am still part of that religion? I am not accusing anything here, I'm trying to be open minded, but from what I've read in the Quran and know about Muhammads life, ISIS seem to be the only Muslims actually fulfilling their supposed "sacred duty".

That depends who you ask.

Ask the ones following the 250 pages, and they'll say, yeah, they're part of the religion.

Ask the ones following all 1000 pages, and they'll say, no, those are heretics/apostates, we must inflict on them the punishments for heresy/apostasy detailed in the 750 pages that they ignore.

Ask me, and I'll say it's an arbitrary matter of where we draw lines of categorization, an utterly abstract decision with no "right" answer.

... my version doesn't seem to be popular with the other two groups.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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20-08-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: ISIS
(20-08-2014 09:57 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 09:50 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I cannot say based on my lack of knowledge what type of Christian is the better representative of Christianity. I would say that after the reformation, the whole doctrine of Christianity was spread out into all these different sects, and so there is not one complete sect of Christianity, as that would be silly, wouldn't it? I don't think it would be possible with all the contradictions.

However Islam is more of a political movement than a religion. That is why you can dissect the separate sects and designate one to be more of a complete Islamic following than another.

Also, in the quote, of course, ISIS claim the Muslims that they do kill aren't Muslims at all. I could say I'm a Muslim because I believe Muhammad to be Allah's last prophet, but because a Muslim is someone who follows the doctrine of Islam, I would have to commit the same atrocities certain types of Muslims commit to actually be practicing Islam.

My point being that Shiite vs Sunni isn't much different than Catholics vs Protestants, and asking "Who is more Christian?" was just as pointless then as asking "Who is more Muslim?" is now...

Who is more this or more that, is a distraction. It does not matter because humans have always been a mix of more violent and less violent, we have always been capable of cruelty and compassion.

The only thing that is important about the east currently is to pull it into modern civility. So no you do not have to deal with the unreasonable, but you cant lump the unreasonable with the reasonable, even if they are not perfect.

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20-08-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: ISIS
It all leads to my personal pursuit of knowledge basically. I'm left with this question then, why be a Muslim at all if you are going to choose to ignore the majority of your holy book? I just don't understand that :/

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20-08-2014, 10:21 AM
RE: ISIS
(20-08-2014 10:15 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  It all leads to my personal pursuit of knowledge basically. I'm left with this question then, why be a Muslim at all if you are going to choose to ignore the majority of your holy book? I just don't understand that :/

ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

Name be one religion, liberal or conservative that does not cherry pick? They all do that.Censored Big Grin,,,,,Just saying,.,,,,

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20-08-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: ISIS
It's not a distraction when you are trying to find a solution to the problem.

The reason differentiating between Muslims is different is because Islam is a POLITICAL ideology just like socialism. Just as a socialist with capitalist tendencies is not really a socialist at all.

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20-08-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: ISIS
I'M NOT SAYING OTHERS DON'T DO IT, I CHOSE ISLAM AS A CASE IN POINT!!! "AGGGGGGGGGGG"

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20-08-2014, 10:32 AM
RE: ISIS
(20-08-2014 10:22 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  It's not a distraction when you are trying to find a solution to the problem.

The reason differentiating between Muslims is different is because Islam is a POLITICAL ideology just like socialism. Just as a socialist with capitalist tendencies is not really a socialist at all.

"CURRENTLY" it infects politics to a theocratic oppressive degree, CURRENTLY


Now again, do not stupidly think Islam invented oppressive theocracies.

In the west we have theism as well, it simply CURRENTLY has a leash on it. Even with that leash, we have our right wing nuts that would love nothing better to turn America into a Christian version of the east. The only thing stopping them is secular law.

Now again, the reason in both cases as to what the "problem" is is the same. It is the stupid idea of "Chosen people". The stupid idea that morality comes from a book of myth. And the ignorance of all of antiquity that your good fortune came from a divine source. But polytheism, not modern monotheism, started that false meme of divine intervention leading to prosperity.

The authoritarian rule of Islam based law is simply strong right now, but it did not invent the idea of god based law.

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