ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
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07-11-2015, 03:39 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
If ( some , while others wouldn`t ) military units would join the rebels or more likely take command of the rebel forces you would just end up with a massive civil war.
Also, potential victory of the rebels in such a scenario in no way secures the restoration of democracy , more likely just a different kind of dictatorship.
Then, you need a rebellion against that too...

And, restoring the system of government as it was before, would make little sense knowing that that very system led to the totalitarian regime in the first place.

Anyway, we should be more constructive about this, why not make a script out of this discussion. Movies about dystopian future are very popular.
So, we write a script, make a movie and consequently shitloads of money and then fund a revolution with it just for shits and giggles.

Sounds like a plan?

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07-11-2015, 03:46 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(07-11-2015 03:39 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  If ( some , while others wouldn`t ) military units would join the rebels or more likely take command of the rebel forces you would just end up with a massive civil war.
Also, potential victory of the rebels in such a scenario in no way secures the restoration of democracy , more likely just a different kind of dictatorship.
Then, you need a rebellion against that too...

And, restoring the system of government as it was before, would make little sense knowing that that very system led to the totalitarian regime in the first place.

Anyway, we should be more constructive about this, why not make a script out of this discussion. Movies about dystopian future are very popular.
So, we write a script, make a movie and consequently shitloads of money and then fund a revolution with it just for shits and giggles.

Sounds like a plan?

And to fund the next revolution we can make a movie about making the movie for the previous revolution... Unless the guys get clever and ban making revolutionary movies, in which case we will have to revolt in the name of our right to make movies...

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-11-2015, 04:29 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(07-11-2015 03:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  And to fund the next revolution we can make a movie about making the movie for the previous revolution... Unless the guys get clever and ban making revolutionary movies, in which case we will have to revolt in the name of our right to make movies...

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07-11-2015, 04:32 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2015 04:39 AM by Slowminded.)
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(07-11-2015 03:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 03:39 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  If ( some , while others wouldn`t ) military units would join the rebels or more likely take command of the rebel forces you would just end up with a massive civil war.
Also, potential victory of the rebels in such a scenario in no way secures the restoration of democracy , more likely just a different kind of dictatorship.
Then, you need a rebellion against that too...

And, restoring the system of government as it was before, would make little sense knowing that that very system led to the totalitarian regime in the first place.

Anyway, we should be more constructive about this, why not make a script out of this discussion. Movies about dystopian future are very popular.
So, we write a script, make a movie and consequently shitloads of money and then fund a revolution with it just for shits and giggles.

Sounds like a plan?

And to fund the next revolution we can make a movie about making the movie for the previous revolution... Unless the guys get clever and ban making revolutionary movies, in which case we will have to revolt in the name of our right to make movies...

Don`t forget about making a movie about fighting for the right to make revolutionary movies.

There would be other benefits you know , our movies would be on every Youtube list of "Top movies that predicted the future" .

When I think about it, there is nothing standing between us and a world domination perpetuated by making self fulfilling predictions in a form of blockbuster movies.
At the end we only need to make a movie about a group of atheists achieving the world domination, and by that point our reputation for making great movies would be unmatched ( eat your hart out Spielberg ) so everybody would watch it and then we use that huge profit to actually achieve the world domination. Evil_monsterEvil_monster

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07-11-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(06-11-2015 09:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  No member of the military is required to follow an illegal order.

There are reporting procedures if you believe an order is unlawful but you better be damn sure or you will be charged with disobeying a lawful order. Also even if the order is unlawful it will not qualify as a valid defense for treason in your court martial.

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07-11-2015, 10:55 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
I've had more instances where I wanted to do something unlawful and they wouldn't let me than the other way around Tongue

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07-11-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(07-11-2015 12:55 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 09:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  No member of the military is required to follow an illegal order. It is only a government that is seen as violating the Constitution that would spur revolution, so all its orders would be deemed illegal.

This is a simplistic view of things. In basic training, the class covering illegal orders lasted less than a day, and the focus was on orders illegal in terms of the Geneva Convention, not the Constitution.

Insufficient course.

Quote:(And I think you're sneaking in an unquestioned premise here when you write "only a government that is seen as violating the Constitution that would spur revolution". Neither you nor I know what might prompt a revolution.)

Not sneaking it in - stating it outright.

Quote:Furthermore, one government order that is unConstitutional does not invalidate "all its orders".

Oh, my. If the government is viewed as being illegitimate, than ALL of its orders are illegal.

Quote:Certainly some military personnel would draw the line at some hypothetical rebellion-point; I'll leave it to you to define such a Rubicon. But I think -- based on my own knowledge of GIs I served with, and others whom I am friends with now -- I think this idea that they would rise up against the government is, well, far-fetched.

I think it less far-fetched than you do. Think of a government chipping away at Constitutional rights; at some point they will go too far.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-11-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
As I said, we disagree.
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07-11-2015, 11:22 PM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(07-11-2015 02:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  Oh, my. If the government is viewed as being illegitimate, than ALL of its orders are illegal.

I think it quite likely that even a government that is clearly illegitimate will have support. If there is a civil war then *post-facto* the losing side will be declared illegal of course. It will be messy.

For example, for decades Americans have tolerated governments which enforced an unconstitutional unfairness on a minority of the population - gay people. Does that make them illegal governments?

How about if they were enforcing segregation - illegal? Does that mean that governments before the end of segregation were acting illegally?

Currently your own government has a massive spy program against its own citizens and others around the world... I'm *pretty* sure that's naughty in terms of enlightenment principles underlying your constitution... even if the actual words aren't there... I highly doubt anyone's gonna revolt though. And if they did it'd be in small pockets of resistance easily quashed and the media could be easily manipulated into reporting it as crazy people / Muslim radicals / any number of other things.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-11-2015, 02:18 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
"Separability" is the term. A government making one mistaken law or pronouncement is not illegal throughout its governance. Most corrections, by far, should happen at the ballot-box.

That sworn soldiers would defect would require one hell of a misstep, it seems to me. It happened 154 years ago, true. But I think the lesson learnt there resonates through the intervening decades. As much as that war split us, it also tied us together; and I don't think sworn personnel take their oaths lightly.
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