ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-11-2015, 06:08 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(07-11-2015 11:22 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 02:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  Oh, my. If the government is viewed as being illegitimate, than ALL of its orders are illegal.

I think it quite likely that even a government that is clearly illegitimate will have support. If there is a civil war then *post-facto* the losing side will be declared illegal of course. It will be messy.

For example, for decades Americans have tolerated governments which enforced an unconstitutional unfairness on a minority of the population - gay people. Does that make them illegal governments?

How about if they were enforcing segregation - illegal? Does that mean that governments before the end of segregation were acting illegally?

Currently your own government has a massive spy program against its own citizens and others around the world... I'm *pretty* sure that's naughty in terms of enlightenment principles underlying your constitution... even if the actual words aren't there... I highly doubt anyone's gonna revolt though. And if they did it'd be in small pockets of resistance easily quashed and the media could be easily manipulated into reporting it as crazy people / Muslim radicals / any number of other things.

It's a question of perceived degree of violation of rights.

I'm neither predicting nor advocating a revolution, merely pointing out that if things get bad enough the military is not monolithic - it is composed of people who have differing views and loyalties.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-11-2015, 06:09 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(08-11-2015 02:18 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  "Separability" is the term. A government making one mistaken law or pronouncement is not illegal throughout its governance. Most corrections, by far, should happen at the ballot-box.

That sworn soldiers would defect would require one hell of a misstep, it seems to me. It happened 154 years ago, true. But I think the lesson learnt there resonates through the intervening decades. As much as that war split us, it also tied us together; and I don't think sworn personnel take their oaths lightly.

I am pointing out that their sworn oath is to protect the Constitution, not the government.

And I'd bet a whole lot of them would recognize that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-11-2015, 11:36 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(08-11-2015 06:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  I am pointing out that their sworn oath is to protect the Constitution, not the government.

The oath of enlistment goes farther than you think. It is an oath not only to protect the Constitution but also to obey orders from the government and the chain of command according to the UCMJ. Everyone I know who took that oath takes it very seriously.

"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-11-2015, 11:36 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
;.......

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-11-2015, 11:50 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(08-11-2015 06:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's a question of perceived degree of violation of rights.

I'm neither predicting nor advocating a revolution, merely pointing out that if things get bad enough the military is not monolithic - it is composed of people who have differing views and loyalties.

No one was arguing otherwise against such a banal observation. I was simply stating that I think the numbers in the ranks who revolt will be relatively small.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-11-2015, 01:16 PM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(08-11-2015 11:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I think the numbers in the ranks who revolt will be relatively small.

And hence easily de-revolted by means of e.g. shooting them.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-11-2015, 06:46 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(08-11-2015 11:36 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-11-2015 06:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  I am pointing out that their sworn oath is to protect the Constitution, not the government.

The oath of enlistment goes farther than you think. It is an oath not only to protect the Constitution but also to obey orders from the government and the chain of command according to the UCMJ. Everyone I know who took that oath takes it very seriously.

If 'the government' is deemed to be acting unconstitutionally, its orders are not legal orders.

Quote:"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Note that the oath includes defending the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. That includes a government grossly violating the Constitution.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
09-11-2015, 06:49 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(08-11-2015 11:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(08-11-2015 06:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's a question of perceived degree of violation of rights.

I'm neither predicting nor advocating a revolution, merely pointing out that if things get bad enough the military is not monolithic - it is composed of people who have differing views and loyalties.

No one was arguing otherwise against such a banal observation. I was simply stating that I think the numbers in the ranks who revolt will be relatively small.

It will likely be proportional to the violations of the government.
My argument is not the military revolting, but elements of the military joining a revolt.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-11-2015, 06:49 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(08-11-2015 01:16 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-11-2015 11:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I think the numbers in the ranks who revolt will be relatively small.

And hence easily de-revolted by means of e.g. shooting them.

They shoot back. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-11-2015, 07:39 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(09-11-2015 06:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-11-2015 01:16 PM)morondog Wrote:  And hence easily de-revolted by means of e.g. shooting them.

They shoot back. Drinking Beverage

But... they are few. Few, and easily painted as evil rebels. Unless they win. Then they're heroic saviours. You'd have to be very, very, very hard-pressed in order to revolt as a grunt. Even a general would really struggle.

I can't even imagine what form an order would have to take, in order for soldiers to revolt. Let's say the rich decide to subvert American democracy and effectively pick the next president for example - as many people think basically *does* happen. Will the army revolt then? How about if the president declares war on a foreign nation in violation of the constitution? (NB I realise that it's debatable but that's the point. It's not clear-cut).

And say if soldiers had decided to conscientiously object to the Iraq war, would they be seen as heroes or villains?

How about the NSA? Edward Snowden alerted the common people to widespread government sanctioned spying which is almost certainly illegal. But there's no revolt and if there was the revolutionaries would find themselves in a tight spot very quickly.

If your military has not objected to such things in the past, why would they start now? What possible unconstitutional order would a US government give that would cause a revolt? I mean, other than the totally outlandish, such as ordering every man home to kill his mother? Maybe ordering genocide of some minority of the population, but that's hardly plausible in this day and age?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: