ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
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28-10-2015, 09:12 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 08:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 07:25 AM)yakherder Wrote:  There were indeed civilian paramilitary militias organized under individual states, but they were not uniformly equipped and held no defined allegiance to the country they were fighting for. Some were lucky enough to have a weapon from their militia's stock, others brought their own guns to the fight, and the rest hoped to pick up something off a dead British soldier. The origins of the 2nd amendment came from even before this, however, when it was critical for citizens to be armed and trained on their own in the absence of a force designated for their protection, which they preferred anyway. The state, as in the United States, did not organize and create a state run military force until after the turn of the century into the 1800s, and it wasn't for the British. It was due to our realization that protecting the nation had to be done beyond one's own borders, something armed citizens aren't exactly ideal for.

No one is debating the observation that there was no state militia before there was a state. Nor is he implying that formation of a national militia was coincident with the formation of the US.

His point (that I and others here clearly support) is that the wording implies that the state's and their militias be protected from disarmament in order for state level protection.

But let's say the wording is intended to extend beyond militias, we live in a different world and the founding fathers (especially Jefferson) intended for the constitution to be open to interpretation (he wanted it rewritten every few decades). The 2nd amendment as it was written and interpreted for the 18th and 19th centuries, is no longer a valid interpretation for those of us living in the 21st century.

Even with our high tech weaponry, the balance of power still rests on armed individuals. I have no immediate intention of putting my leverage to active use, but I'm not about to willingly give it up in the face of a world that has no inherent reason to take my own interests into consideration. Life is only as fair as you forcefully make it. That's just as true now as it's always been.

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28-10-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
Oh yay, another fucking gun debate.

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28-10-2015, 09:17 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 09:12 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 08:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  No one is debating the observation that there was no state militia before there was a state. Nor is he implying that formation of a national militia was coincident with the formation of the US.

His point (that I and others here clearly support) is that the wording implies that the state's and their militias be protected from disarmament in order for state level protection.

But let's say the wording is intended to extend beyond militias, we live in a different world and the founding fathers (especially Jefferson) intended for the constitution to be open to interpretation (he wanted it rewritten every few decades). The 2nd amendment as it was written and interpreted for the 18th and 19th centuries, is no longer a valid interpretation for those of us living in the 21st century.

Even with our high tech weaponry, the balance of power still rests on armed individuals. I have no immediate intention of putting my leverage to active use, but I'm not about to willingly give it up in the face of a world that has no inherent reason to take my own interests into consideration. Life is only as fair as you forcefully make it. That's just as true now as it's always been.

"Even with our high tech weaponry, the balance of power still rests on armed individuals."

Because individuals operate weapons, no one is disputing that. But the implication from the right is always that the guns are necessary protection from our own government. Which is quite literally saying that they believe they'll need them to kill cops and soldiers, implying that cops and soldiers (American citizens) would (in some scenario) operate under orders from a commander-in-chief who is declaring war on Americans. The notion that our government will (with its checks and balances) suddenly give way to fascism, is asinine.

"I have no immediate intention of putting my leverage to active use, but I'm not about to willingly give it up in the face of a world that has no inherent reason to take my own interests into consideration."

Did anyone ever say you should give it up?

"Life is only as fair as you forcefully make it. That's just as true now as it's always been."

Life isn't fair, period. "Forcefully" trying to make it so, is a delusion.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-10-2015, 09:21 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
I don't fear the government.

I fear the government's failure to provide adequate protection from thugs, terrorists and lunatics.

Until they correct that failure, I'll keep my guns so I at least have a fighting chance.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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28-10-2015, 09:26 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 09:21 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I don't fear the government.

I fear the government's failure to provide adequate protection from thugs, terrorists and lunatics.

Until they correct that failure, I'll keep my guns so I at least have a fighting chance.

And I don't think the dangers associated with "thugs, terrorists, and lunatics" outweighs the threats we pose to ourselves with guns, based on the statistics within our country and compared to other first world countries.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-10-2015, 09:30 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 09:16 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Oh yay, another fucking gun debate.


I got to have fun with a crazy. So it's all good. Tongue
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28-10-2015, 09:31 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 09:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 09:21 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I don't fear the government.

I fear the government's failure to provide adequate protection from thugs, terrorists and lunatics.

Until they correct that failure, I'll keep my guns so I at least have a fighting chance.

And I don't think the dangers associated with "thugs, terrorists, and lunatics" outweighs the threats we pose to ourselves with guns, based on the statistics within our country and compared to other first world countries.

I think you need to read the news more often.

People get assaulted, robbed, and murdered by thugs daily.

ISIS is planning lone wolf attacks here on American soil.

Lunatics are shooting up schools, malls etc.

I carry a gun everywhere I go. I won't be a victim, hopefully.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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28-10-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 09:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 09:12 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Even with our high tech weaponry, the balance of power still rests on armed individuals. I have no immediate intention of putting my leverage to active use, but I'm not about to willingly give it up in the face of a world that has no inherent reason to take my own interests into consideration. Life is only as fair as you forcefully make it. That's just as true now as it's always been.

"Even with our high tech weaponry, the balance of power still rests on armed individuals."

Because individuals operate weapons, no one is disputing that. But the implication from the right is always that the guns are necessary protection from our own government. Which is quite literally saying that they believe they'll need them to kill cops and soldiers, implying that cops and soldiers (American citizens) would (in some scenario) operate under orders from a commander-in-chief who is declaring war on Americans. The notion that our government will (with its checks and balances) suddenly give way to fascism, is asinine.
It's not in any way out of the realm of possibility. Regardless, as things stand right now, it's not the government which is my immediate concern.

Quote:"I have no immediate intention of putting my leverage to active use, but I'm not about to willingly give it up in the face of a world that has no inherent reason to take my own interests into consideration."

Did anyone ever say you should give it up?
I'm not sure exactly what you had in mind, but at present I've got what many would refer to as assault rifles, high capacity magazines, about 60,000 rounds of ammunition, 3rd gen night optics, plate carriers, etc. If you're not interested in restricting that, then what exactly are we debating?

Quote:"Life is only as fair as you forcefully make it. That's just as true now as it's always been."

Life isn't fair, period. "Forcefully" trying to make it so, is a delusion.

I use the term "fair" sarcastically. Life is a game of leverage. Those above mentioned checks and balances recognize that. One of those checks and balances is that the people be armed, thereby maintaining some of that leverage for themselves. Without the threat of force, laws are merely suggestions. That goes both for the people being governed as well as the government governing them.

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28-10-2015, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2015 09:42 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 09:31 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 09:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And I don't think the dangers associated with "thugs, terrorists, and lunatics" outweighs the threats we pose to ourselves with guns, based on the statistics within our country and compared to other first world countries.

I think you need to read the news more often.

People get assaulted, robbed, and murdered by thugs daily.

ISIS is planning lone wolf attacks here on American soil.

Lunatics are shooting up schools, malls etc.

I carry a gun everywhere I go. I won't be a victim, hopefully.

I read the news, but I also look at the statistics that tell me that the way in which the media portrays the robberies, assaults, muggings, and "thug" murders isn't representative of the normal day to day life of an American. And that stats show that guns produce more negative effects than positive effects in our society.

ISIS can plan attacks on the US all it wants, it has a highly unlikely possibility of carrying out those plans. And if you are of the delusion that the "good guy with a gun" is going to stop a coordinated terrorist ploy, you should stop watching the news and action movies.

"I carry a gun everywhere I go. I won't be a victim, hopefully."

If you are trained properly, licensed, and of sound mental state, then I don't care if you do or do not carry a gun. But I am glad you put "hopefully" in this line, as it indicates that you recognize carrying a gun is NOT a guarantee of safety by any means.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-10-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 09:31 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 09:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And I don't think the dangers associated with "thugs, terrorists, and lunatics" outweighs the threats we pose to ourselves with guns, based on the statistics within our country and compared to other first world countries.

I think you need to read the news more often.

People get assaulted, robbed, and murdered by thugs daily.

ISIS is planning lone wolf attacks here on American soil.

Lunatics are shooting up schools, malls etc.

I carry a gun everywhere I go. I won't be a victim, hopefully.

That's the grave level of ignorance the media works well to drum up.

Sure, there are things like that out there. At significantly lower levels than ever before in the functions of that society. When you go off of actual data formulated and statistically brought up, instead of not wanting to be a victim or statistic, you can see how clear that path is. The News is selective and focused on interesting. So mostly all it will talk about is the fearful and bad. It literally stands for little about how society actually is via the news though.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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