ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
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28-10-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 10:20 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Power does not come from the people voting.

Power comes out the barrel of a gun.

If you don't believe that, you'd best get religion and pray that you never find out otherwise.

Look at history. EVERY instance of major change of government ultimately came down to direct force and action by armed men.

Totally wrong.

Power comes from the people. They don't need guns. If people stopped working and stopped paying taxes then society would not function. Governments are nothing without a functioning society.

Sure the governments can use force and guns to try bending the people to their will but they can't kill them all and they ultimately make the problem worse by doing so because they lose the moral high ground.

I don't remember Gandi ever brandishing a gun when India was occupied by the British.
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28-10-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 10:08 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 10:05 AM)yakherder Wrote:  I want to have the option of force in order to protect myself from anyone whose interests are in conflict with my own to the extent that a compromise cannot be reached. That includes any entity ranging from a criminal element or gangs taking advantage of a lapse in government capabilities, to a government taking advantage of a lack of leverage possessed by the people it governs. When I say I'm not concerned with the government at the moment, I'm referring to immediate context. Governments around the world fail, collapse, and change hands on a regular basis. At this particular moment, our government is not in danger of immediate collapse and still chooses to acknowledge the Democratic process, including the above mentioned right to vote and freedom of speech (more or less). Consent alone, however, does not guarantee that this will remain true. What I was getting at above is simply that I recognize that, right now, the biggest threats to our sovereignty are not coming from the government. But that can always change.

Like I said, I don't ascribe to the alarmist conspiracy that our government will dissolve and send us into a spiral of anarchy. And I certainly don't believe that the possibility of that occurrence is high enough to warrant any measure of realistic concern.

It makes for a great movie scenario, but I like to live in a non-fictional world Thumbsup

From your perspective, way up on that high horse of yours, I'm sure people like me do indeed look like nutcases. And, I admit, many of them probably are to some degree. Irrationality tends to go along with subjective experiences as we try to mold our perceptions to fit what we already believe. Your demographic and mine have that in common. But there is nothing fiction about preparing for unlikely but potentially catastrophic scenarios. That is, in fact, what I've spent most of my life doing. And not just as a prepared individual, but as an employee of the government in fields ranging from communications intelligence to front line combat. The reason everything seems to run so smoothly from your vantage point is because the government is, in fact, paranoid as fuck right along with me, making a constant effort to ensure that all those unlikely scenarios don't actually come to fruition.

'Murican Canadian
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28-10-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 11:01 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  If people stopped working and stopped paying taxes then society would not function. Governments are nothing without a functioning society.
You can bring down the government, sure. What you can't do is control the ensuing power vacuum, which is in most cases filled through force.

Quote:I don't remember Gandi ever brandishing a gun when India was occupied by the British.

Ghandi wasn't the only one involved in getting the British out of India, and he was dead within a year after it happened. In the ensuing years, India was in a near constant state of war with what is now Pakistan in the reforming of its new boundaries.

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28-10-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I read the news, but I also look at the statistics that tell me that the way in which the media portrays the robberies, assaults, muggings, and "thug" murders isn't representative of the normal day to day life of an American.

Yes it is. Ask any of the self-righteous Europeans who are chiming in.

Quote:And that stats show that guns produce more negative effects than positive effects in our society

If you can't express this as a number it's an opinion. My opinion is as valid as yours. Show me the stat that says for every gun in our society we lose "X" number of quality points, net.

Quote: if you are of the delusion that the "good guy with a gun" is going to stop a coordinated terrorist ploy, you should stop watching the news and action movies

If you are under the delusion that the cops are able to stop an active shooter before he kills some one, you should stop playing with superhero dolls.

Quote:If you are trained properly, licensed, and of sound mental state, then I don't care if you do or do not carry a gun.

Then get off my back.
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28-10-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 10:08 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Like I said, I don't ascribe to the alarmist conspiracy that our government will dissolve and send us into a spiral of anarchy. And I certainly don't believe that the possibility of that occurrence is high enough to warrant any measure of realistic concern.

It makes for a great movie scenario, but I like to live in a non-fictional world Thumbsup

Myself, I don't carry a spare tire in the car because I expect to have a flat, I carry it in case I have a flat. Also, I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.
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28-10-2015, 11:20 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 11:02 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 10:08 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Like I said, I don't ascribe to the alarmist conspiracy that our government will dissolve and send us into a spiral of anarchy. And I certainly don't believe that the possibility of that occurrence is high enough to warrant any measure of realistic concern.

It makes for a great movie scenario, but I like to live in a non-fictional world Thumbsup

From your perspective, way up on that high horse of yours, I'm sure people like me do indeed look like nutcases. And, I admit, many of them probably are to some degree. Irrationality tends to go along with subjective experiences as we try to mold our perceptions to fit what we already believe. Your demographic and mine have that in common. But there is nothing fiction about preparing for unlikely but potentially catastrophic scenarios. That is, in fact, what I've spent most of my life doing. And not just as a prepared individual, but as an employee of the government in fields ranging from communications intelligence to front line combat. The reason everything seems to run so smoothly from your vantage point is because the government is, in fact, paranoid as fuck right along with me, making a constant effort to ensure that all those unlikely scenarios don't actually come to fruition.

Your paranoia over an apocalyptic demise of the US into anarchy, is not a compelling argument for armament of average everyday citizens. Nor is it an argument against better restrictions, regulations, and training for those who wish to own and/or carry guns.

I don't buy into such conspiracies. You call that me being on my "high horse" but I simply call it being rational.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-10-2015, 11:23 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 11:07 AM)jabeady Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I read the news, but I also look at the statistics that tell me that the way in which the media portrays the robberies, assaults, muggings, and "thug" murders isn't representative of the normal day to day life of an American.

Yes it is. Ask any of the self-righteous Europeans who are chiming in.

Quote:And that stats show that guns produce more negative effects than positive effects in our society

If you can't express this as a number it's an opinion. My opinion is as valid as yours. Show me the stat that says for every gun in our society we lose "X" number of quality points, net.

Quote: if you are of the delusion that the "good guy with a gun" is going to stop a coordinated terrorist ploy, you should stop watching the news and action movies

If you are under the delusion that the cops are able to stop an active shooter before he kills some one, you should stop playing with superhero dolls.

Quote:If you are trained properly, licensed, and of sound mental state, then I don't care if you do or do not carry a gun.

Then get off my back.

"Yes it is. Ask any of the self-righteous Europeans who are chiming in. "

If anecdotes don't convince me of god, why would it convince me that the statistics and facts are wrong?

"If you can't express this as a number it's an opinion. My opinion is as valid as yours. Show me the stat that says for every gun in our society we lose "X" number of quality points, net."

These stats have been given by me in a myriad of gun related threads. Search my posts for them.

"If you are under the delusion that the cops are able to stop an active shooter before he kills some one, you should stop playing with superhero dolls."

And yet the reality is that no "good guy with a gun" is stopping them either.

"Then get off my back."

At what point was I ever on your back? Me stating my opinion, observations, and the stats/facts shouldn't be "on your back" unless you are unable to differentiate between a difference of opinion and an attack.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-10-2015, 11:25 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 11:17 AM)jabeady Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 10:08 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Like I said, I don't ascribe to the alarmist conspiracy that our government will dissolve and send us into a spiral of anarchy. And I certainly don't believe that the possibility of that occurrence is high enough to warrant any measure of realistic concern.

It makes for a great movie scenario, but I like to live in a non-fictional world Thumbsup

Myself, I don't carry a spare tire in the car because I expect to have a flat, I carry it in case I have a flat. Also, I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.

And your spare tire poses no threat to others. Your gun potentially does. Even more so if operated by an untrained moron (like far too many people scrambling to the annual "Obama is coming for your guns" sales around the country).

All I am saying is that the average person isn't very bright. And the average person can get guns with no training and no mental health evaluation. It is the average Joe Blow with a gun that scares me.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-10-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(28-10-2015 11:01 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  I don't remember Gandi ever brandishing a gun when India was occupied by the British.

Not that I want to be drawn into the larger debate, but I'd just like to point out that Ghandi's legacy is far more nuanced than his public perception might have you believe. His past, including his use of violence when it suited him, leaves him with a far more checkered past than you may think. Just something to consider before holding him up as a champion of pacifism, because he certainly had his moments.

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28-10-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: ISLAMIC INVASION PULLS TRIGGER: EUROPE NOW SCRAMBLES FOR GUNS
(27-10-2015 09:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The need to draw an armed militia is outdated, and now unreasonable. I don't care what Virginia said, or SCOTUS said in the PAST with respect to circumstances in the PAST. We now must deal with TODAY. The situation TODAY is unsafe, and unreasonable. The "reasonable" test trumps everything, always. It always has, and even the most conservative members of SCOTUS agree with that, including Antonin Scalia. The current level of gun violence is unreasonable. Courts, including SCOTUS have made huge mistakes, and have reversed themselves over all kinds of things. The kinds of arms people use today were not even invented at the time of the Second Amendment.

What you think doesn't matter.

The law, and jurisprudence, of the land, means that your reading of the Second Amendment is wrong.

When in error, it's best to simply admit it. Doubling down does nothing to help you.
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