Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
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14-05-2014, 06:58 AM
RE: Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
Sex education in my household is my job. My wife isn't quite up to it. So far we haven't actually gotten to the "sex" part of sex education. I want to keep the communication lines open and encourage worthwhile sources of knowledge on the subject.

So far the program looks like this:

* Ages 0-6ish - Your private parts are just for you. They aren't for sharing, but they're nothing to be embarrassed about. Sometimes boys and girls get married, or boys and boys, or girls and girls.

* 6ish to present - Broad coverage of what changes to expect during puberty. Where hair grows. Where the blood comes out. A womb is where babies grow. What it feels like to have a period. Progression of breast growth. What it feels like to be kicked in the balls. Teenagers are wired to fight their parents - there is conflict coming. Hormones are going to drive their emotions and way of thinking.

* present phase with Miss 8 - Sex is "making babies". No further explanation has been offered or requested. The long term commitment of marriage is a good context for raising children, and giving both partners and children confidence and certainty. Delay sex/marriage: People who have their first serious boyfriend or girlfriend later in their teens or into their twenties tend to make better life choices overall. She is sure she isn't going to have sex until she's at least 25. I tell her that hormones will have a way of driving her decision-making processes, and she may find she ends up reconsidering that one. Understand what taboos are and why they exist: People don't like to talk to children about sex because they think by telling them they'll cause them to have sex when they aren't ready for it.

* future - What it feels like to be attracted to someone. Crushes. Bad relationships. Good choices and bad choices. I would tend to point my children towards Laci Green or Sexplainations, both youtube channels with good coverage of topics like consent and desire and practical sexual matters.

Overall I want my children to feel very much open to talk about things with me. Generally speaking I think there is a fine line to walk on all of these issues, and parents should be given some latitude to find that path. But yeah, I do find these images and the approach they are using creepy and it does seem to hark back to an earlier time or another culture. It reminds me of western descriptions of Islamic control over women, where women cannot be out and about without a male relative and are effectively property owned by their father to be traded or transferred to another man in marriage.

I feel that whatever sexual communication and guidance that occurs with a young woman or young man should firstly be information rich and empowering. Such communication should encourage the recipient to apply their own values and judgement, and only as a secondary feature of the communication should the parent's own values and judgement be expressed. The parent's values and judgements are important and are driven by sometimes very valuable and relevant experience. These should not be dismissed. But as with any lesson it is the student's application of the knowledge to express their own values and judgements that is at the heart of the matter. It is possible to inform a child's values and judgements, but it is never really possible or desirable to replace them with your own.

I see the practices in the article above as putting parental values and judgement very much to fore, possibly even to the exclusion of providing real information and empowerment. Rather than set up a child so they know what to expect and have thought about their potential actions and consequences, it sets up a system by which the child is likely to be placed in novel environments with little guidance beyond "don't". When the inevitable happens and "don't" is replaced by "whoops", it sets the parent up not as someone who the child can talk to but as someone who will necessarily be hurt and embarrassed and angry about that eventuality. It seems to cut the child off from parental support in the case they do cross a line the parent hopes they will not cross. There is no obvious mitigation present in the model to this risk.

When I was growing up my mother's message boiled down to "sex is good, sex is fun, sex is god-ordained within marriage, but don't do it before you marry". This was an OK mix, but perhaps the most interesting thing that happened was that she continued to support us and love us (my sister's case is the most relevant here) despite what may or may not have transpired. So the messages were mixed but she came through in the end, especially as we got older.

She walked a line of defining what she considered acceptable behaviour, but accepting us and helping us deal with consequences as they eventuated when we didn't meet her standard. I don't think she was a perfect model in this regard but was at least an acceptable model. The fathers in this story have clearly defined the boundary they don't want crossed, and perhaps there is some value in that as pedagogical tool. But as adults we must also accept those who do not meet the standard we set, and I hope the fathers would know how to do that.

My feeling is that many don't, and that is to me more disturbing than the images and content in the original article. I base that feeling partly on this report: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/...12360.html

I don't believe that 0.5% of american women give birth without having sex, and I believe follow-up studies on these cases confirm that the bulk of claimed virgin births come from exactly the kind of parenting we see depicted in the article - conservative Christian girls who have pledged their virginity to their fathers and can't admit to having sex or have performed sex acts that they didn't consider "real sex" but nonetheless resulted in conception.

That's the end of things that disturbs me most. I think parents wanting to know about their child's sex life is potentially creepy and contains hazards worth mitigating, but I would prefer an environment where a child feels they can talk about sex with parents over one where the child feels shut out. I am somewhat disturbed by explicit "father is my platonic boyfriend" sentiment and imagery given the misogynistic roots that sentiment has... by my biggest creep out by far is reserved for parents who communicate values to their children without information or empowerment, and put their children into a place where they can't communicate with anyone and are lambs rife to be subjects of abuse by themselves and others.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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14-05-2014, 07:23 AM
RE: Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
(14-05-2014 06:58 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Sex education in my household is my job. My wife isn't quite up to it. So far we haven't actually gotten to the "sex" part of sex education. I want to keep the communication lines open and encourage worthwhile sources of knowledge on the subject.

So far the program looks like this:

* Ages 0-6ish - Your private parts are just for you. They aren't for sharing, but they're nothing to be embarrassed about. Sometimes boys and girls get married, or boys and boys, or girls and girls.

* 6ish to present - Broad coverage of what changes to expect during puberty. Where hair grows. Where the blood comes out. A womb is where babies grow. What it feels like to have a period. Progression of breast growth. What it feels like to be kicked in the balls. Teenagers are wired to fight their parents - there is conflict coming. Hormones are going to drive their emotions and way of thinking.

* present phase with Miss 8 - Sex is "making babies". No further explanation has been offered or requested. The long term commitment of marriage is a good context for raising children, and giving both partners and children confidence and certainty. Delay sex/marriage: People who have their first serious boyfriend or girlfriend later in their teens or into their twenties tend to make better life choices overall. She is sure she isn't going to have sex until she's at least 25. I tell her that hormones will have a way of driving her decision-making processes, and she may find she ends up reconsidering that one. Understand what taboos are and why they exist: People don't like to talk to children about sex because they think by telling them they'll cause them to have sex when they aren't ready for it.

* future - What it feels like to be attracted to someone. Crushes. Bad relationships. Good choices and bad choices. I would tend to point my children towards Laci Green or Sexplainations, both youtube channels with good coverage of topics like consent and desire and practical sexual matters.

Overall I want my children to feel very much open to talk about things with me. Generally speaking I think there is a fine line to walk on all of these issues, and parents should be given some latitude to find that path. But yeah, I do find these images and the approach they are using creepy and it does seem to hark back to an earlier time or another culture. It reminds me of western descriptions of Islamic control over women, where women cannot be out and about without a male relative and are effectively property owned by their father to be traded or transferred to another man in marriage.

I feel that whatever sexual communication and guidance that occurs with a young woman or young man should firstly be information rich and empowering. Such communication should encourage the recipient to apply their own values and judgement, and only as a secondary feature of the communication should the parent's own values and judgement be expressed. The parent's values and judgements are important and are driven by sometimes very valuable and relevant experience. These should not be dismissed. But as with any lesson it is the student's application of the knowledge to express their own values and judgements that is at the heart of the matter. It is possible to inform a child's values and judgements, but it is never really possible or desirable to replace them with your own.

I see the practices in the article above as putting parental values and judgement very much to fore, possibly even to the exclusion of providing real information and empowerment. Rather than set up a child so they know what to expect and have thought about their potential actions and consequences, it sets up a system by which the child is likely to be placed in novel environments with little guidance beyond "don't". When the inevitable happens and "don't" is replaced by "whoops", it sets the parent up not as someone who the child can talk to but as someone who will necessarily be hurt and embarrassed and angry about that eventuality. It seems to cut the child off from parental support in the case they do cross a line the parent hopes they will not cross. There is no obvious mitigation present in the model to this risk.

When I was growing up my mother's message boiled down to "sex is good, sex is fun, sex is god-ordained within marriage, but don't do it before you marry". This was an OK mix, but perhaps the most interesting thing that happened was that she continued to support us and love us (my sister's case is the most relevant here) despite what may or may not have transpired. So the messages were mixed but she came through in the end, especially as we got older.

She walked a line of defining what she considered acceptable behaviour, but accepting us and helping us deal with consequences as they eventuated when we didn't meet her standard. I don't think she was a perfect model in this regard but was at least an acceptable model. The fathers in this story have clearly defined the boundary they don't want crossed, and perhaps there is some value in that as pedagogical tool. But as adults we must also accept those who do not meet the standard we set, and I hope the fathers would know how to do that.

My feeling is that many don't, and that is to me more disturbing than the images and content in the original article. I base that feeling partly on this report: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/...12360.html

I don't believe that 0.5% of american women give birth without having sex, and I believe follow-up studies on these cases confirm that the bulk of claimed virgin births come from exactly the kind of parenting we see depicted in the article - conservative Christian girls who have pledged their virginity to their fathers and can't admit to having sex or have performed sex acts that they didn't consider "real sex" but nonetheless resulted in conception.

That's the end of things that disturbs me most. I think parents wanting to know about their child's sex life is potentially creepy and contains hazards worth mitigating, but I would prefer an environment where a child feels they can talk about sex with parents over one where the child feels shut out. I am somewhat disturbed by explicit "father is my platonic boyfriend" sentiment and imagery given the misogynistic roots that sentiment has... by my biggest creep out by far is reserved for parents who communicate values to their children without information or empowerment, and put their children into a place where they can't communicate with anyone and are lambs rife to be subjects of abuse by themselves and others.

That was a well reasoned and very nicely presented argument. Kudos. The zone of ignorance that the kind of thinking being endorsed here is truly tragic. In the US the states that are the most religious are also the ones that prefer a strict abstinence only low information take on Sex Ed that results in them leading the nation in teen mothers and stds. Ignorance kills and when ignorance is codified it has far reaching effects.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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14-05-2014, 07:49 AM
RE: Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
For some reason when I first heard of purity balls, I thought someone had come up with a weird iteration of truck nuts. Huh



Turned out to be something way more creepy. No

Τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια?
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14-05-2014, 07:51 AM
RE: Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
(14-05-2014 07:49 AM)John Wrote:  For some reason when I first heard of purity balls, I thought someone had come up with a weird iteration of truck nuts. Huh



Turned out to be something way more creepy. No

When I saw the title I imagined some kind of love eggs used like a minimalist version of a chastity belt.
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14-05-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
(14-05-2014 06:58 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Sex education in my household is my job. My wife isn't quite up to it. So far we haven't actually gotten to the "sex" part of sex education. I want to keep the communication lines open and encourage worthwhile sources of knowledge on the subject.

So far the program looks like this:

* Ages 0-6ish - Your private parts are just for you. They aren't for sharing, but they're nothing to be embarrassed about. Sometimes boys and girls get married, or boys and boys, or girls and girls.

* 6ish to present - Broad coverage of what changes to expect during puberty. Where hair grows. Where the blood comes out. A womb is where babies grow. What it feels like to have a period. Progression of breast growth. What it feels like to be kicked in the balls. Teenagers are wired to fight their parents - there is conflict coming. Hormones are going to drive their emotions and way of thinking.

* present phase with Miss 8 - Sex is "making babies". No further explanation has been offered or requested. The long term commitment of marriage is a good context for raising children, and giving both partners and children confidence and certainty. Delay sex/marriage: People who have their first serious boyfriend or girlfriend later in their teens or into their twenties tend to make better life choices overall. She is sure she isn't going to have sex until she's at least 25. I tell her that hormones will have a way of driving her decision-making processes, and she may find she ends up reconsidering that one. Understand what taboos are and why they exist: People don't like to talk to children about sex because they think by telling them they'll cause them to have sex when they aren't ready for it.

* future - What it feels like to be attracted to someone. Crushes. Bad relationships. Good choices and bad choices. I would tend to point my children towards Laci Green or Sexplainations, both youtube channels with good coverage of topics like consent and desire and practical sexual matters.

Overall I want my children to feel very much open to talk about things with me. Generally speaking I think there is a fine line to walk on all of these issues, and parents should be given some latitude to find that path. But yeah, I do find these images and the approach they are using creepy and it does seem to hark back to an earlier time or another culture. It reminds me of western descriptions of Islamic control over women, where women cannot be out and about without a male relative and are effectively property owned by their father to be traded or transferred to another man in marriage.

I feel that whatever sexual communication and guidance that occurs with a young woman or young man should firstly be information rich and empowering. Such communication should encourage the recipient to apply their own values and judgement, and only as a secondary feature of the communication should the parent's own values and judgement be expressed. The parent's values and judgements are important and are driven by sometimes very valuable and relevant experience. These should not be dismissed. But as with any lesson it is the student's application of the knowledge to express their own values and judgements that is at the heart of the matter. It is possible to inform a child's values and judgements, but it is never really possible or desirable to replace them with your own.

I see the practices in the article above as putting parental values and judgement very much to fore, possibly even to the exclusion of providing real information and empowerment. Rather than set up a child so they know what to expect and have thought about their potential actions and consequences, it sets up a system by which the child is likely to be placed in novel environments with little guidance beyond "don't". When the inevitable happens and "don't" is replaced by "whoops", it sets the parent up not as someone who the child can talk to but as someone who will necessarily be hurt and embarrassed and angry about that eventuality. It seems to cut the child off from parental support in the case they do cross a line the parent hopes they will not cross. There is no obvious mitigation present in the model to this risk.

When I was growing up my mother's message boiled down to "sex is good, sex is fun, sex is god-ordained within marriage, but don't do it before you marry". This was an OK mix, but perhaps the most interesting thing that happened was that she continued to support us and love us (my sister's case is the most relevant here) despite what may or may not have transpired. So the messages were mixed but she came through in the end, especially as we got older.

She walked a line of defining what she considered acceptable behaviour, but accepting us and helping us deal with consequences as they eventuated when we didn't meet her standard. I don't think she was a perfect model in this regard but was at least an acceptable model. The fathers in this story have clearly defined the boundary they don't want crossed, and perhaps there is some value in that as pedagogical tool. But as adults we must also accept those who do not meet the standard we set, and I hope the fathers would know how to do that.

My feeling is that many don't, and that is to me more disturbing than the images and content in the original article. I base that feeling partly on this report: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/...12360.html

I don't believe that 0.5% of american women give birth without having sex, and I believe follow-up studies on these cases confirm that the bulk of claimed virgin births come from exactly the kind of parenting we see depicted in the article - conservative Christian girls who have pledged their virginity to their fathers and can't admit to having sex or have performed sex acts that they didn't consider "real sex" but nonetheless resulted in conception.

That's the end of things that disturbs me most. I think parents wanting to know about their child's sex life is potentially creepy and contains hazards worth mitigating, but I would prefer an environment where a child feels they can talk about sex with parents over one where the child feels shut out. I am somewhat disturbed by explicit "father is my platonic boyfriend" sentiment and imagery given the misogynistic roots that sentiment has... by my biggest creep out by far is reserved for parents who communicate values to their children without information or empowerment, and put their children into a place where they can't communicate with anyone and are lambs rife to be subjects of abuse by themselves and others.

Excellent. The "information rich and empowering" is a great way to put it. It enriches the young with their own sexual autonomy which is the complete and total opposite of the purity ball mentality.

You will do well with your children. I pretty much followed those same ideas you have and it worked out well. When my daughter became sexually active at 16 (and most 16 year olds are sexually active) I supported her and helped her with some birth control. She has a great sense of independence, sexually and otherwise, and it began with the information we provided when she was younger. Her parents, are NOT the owners of her sexuality nor is any damn God. That real estate belongs only to her.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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14-05-2014, 10:28 AM
RE: Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
(14-05-2014 06:58 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  ---
... by my biggest creep out by far is reserved for parents who communicate values to their children without information or empowerment, and put their children into a place where they can't communicate with anyone and are lambs rife to be subjects of abuse by themselves and others.

Very well put Haffy! Thumbsup

They set their kids up to be victims of their own sexuality...

Consider
...not unlike the way god set up his children to be victims of ... everything!

We'd have never been tossed out of paradise, if Eve would've had a Purity Ball!

Angel

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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15-05-2014, 12:03 AM
RE: Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
(14-05-2014 10:28 AM)kim Wrote:  They set their kids up to be victims of their own sexuality...

I bought the sex is dirty thing hook, line and sinker when I was younger Dodgy It took me *years* to reprogram. When you're a shy kid in the first place... There are still friends I have who think that sex is only good in marriage, and I bet even then, that they feel dirty while doing it.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-05-2014, 07:46 AM
RE: Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
(15-05-2014 12:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  I bought the sex is dirty thing hook, line and sinker when I was younger Dodgy It took me *years* to reprogram. When you're a shy kid in the first place... There are still friends I have who think that sex is only good in marriage, and I bet even then, that they feel dirty while doing it.

But of course. Shame as social control is half the point.

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15-05-2014, 08:57 AM
RE: Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
(15-05-2014 12:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 10:28 AM)kim Wrote:  They set their kids up to be victims of their own sexuality...

I bought the sex is dirty thing hook, line and sinker when I was younger Dodgy It took me *years* to reprogram. When you're a shy kid in the first place... There are still friends I have who think that sex is only good in marriage, and I bet even then, that they feel dirty while doing it.

Yes, it took me years to understand that sex is the dirtiest only when you're doing it right.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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15-05-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: Icky. Purity Ball and this on going virgin culture
(15-05-2014 12:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 10:28 AM)kim Wrote:  They set their kids up to be victims of their own sexuality...

I bought the sex is dirty thing hook, line and sinker when I was younger Dodgy It took me *years* to reprogram. When you're a shy kid in the first place... There are still friends I have who think that sex is only good in marriage, and I bet even then, that they feel dirty while doing it.

fortunately I escaped that. I realized what was happening to me was natural, and why should it be wrong if it was naturally happening to me? Everything else natural seemed perfectly ok, so why should this be different? I also had access to the (early) internet, so I knew that everyone felt these things. The church folks that taught sex ed tried to instill the shame, but it didn't take.

This really has driven my own views on sex ed. Tell kids that what they are feeling is natural and there's nothing to be ashamed about. Give them guidance but never make them feel embarrassed or ashamed about what they are naturally feeling.

Well, not only do these purity balls hamper normal teenage sexual development, but they're also openly misogynistic. That's lovely. But it is a religious ceremony, so it should be expected.
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