Identity
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19-12-2011, 08:18 PM (This post was last modified: 19-12-2011 08:25 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Identity
(19-12-2011 10:56 AM)Leela Wrote:  @GirlyMan:
Sounds interesting. Wanna share to what conclusions you came in that semester? I am curious Smile

Shit Leela, I gotta go back a full 30 years to remember the details. Pretty sure I got my old essays and syllabus packed away somewhere, I'll see if I can dig them up. Bottom line I left the course with was that "I" am not only far more tenuous than I thought I was, but am unlikely to be anything close to what "I" can imagine myself to be.

If you want to really explore the question, I'd suggest you start with the papers of my old Professor Emeritus Raymond Martin. He has spent a very successful career devoted to this very question. Here's his extremely impressive CV or you could start with his online papers here.

Specific topics I remember discussing were:

1) Star Trek teleportation and the influence of physical composition on personal identity. How can you be the same person when you arrive at the point of teleportation when you are comprised of entirely different matter? None of the atoms comprising you are the same as when you left. How does the fact that cells are constantly regenerating with a complete turnover rate of every 7 years apply here? If I stole your wedding ring and replaced it with an atomically identical ring stripped of its personal history with you and you didn't realize it, would it bother you? Why or why not?

2) "Brain in a vat". How would we know and does it even matter? (Pretty sure this thought experiment was the inspiration for the film "The Matrix").

3) The influence of memory on personal identity. Professor Martin has since written a paper entitled The Value of Memory: Reflections on “Memento” after seeing the movie Memento.

4) The influence of free will on personal identity. Spent a lot of time discussing Libet's experiments and how free will or the lack of it influences our concepts of personal identity.

5) The influence of linguistics on personal identity. Spent a bunch of time with Wittgenstein and how language and its inherent limitations influence our concepts of personal identity.

Whew, that was more than I thought I could dig up from memory alone on a whim. I do recall thinking "Well, this is quite the mind fuck, wonder if pharmacology could help here." And lo and behold, it could and did. Wink

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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20-12-2011, 12:45 AM
RE: Identity
(19-12-2011 08:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Whew, that was more than I thought I could dig up from memory alone on a whim. I do recall thinking "Well, this is quite the mind fuck, wonder if pharmacology could help here." And lo and behold, it could and did. Wink

Or is your brain in a vat making you think you remembered all of this when really you are creating it now for the first time?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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20-12-2011, 06:16 AM
RE: Identity
@ GirlyMan: Thanks a lot. The topics sound very interesting, I will definitely read your links. (Just not now, I am at work)

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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20-12-2011, 03:59 PM
RE: Identity
Everything you think you know, baby, is wrong...





Garbage, always wrong; ellenjanuary. The soul of the soulless, ellenjanuary; the evil without evil.

Always. Life does not begin at concpetion, life begins at singularity; right now, 13.7 billion years in the other direction. ellenjanuary will be the last light burning in the house of cantor should the should the organics fail; which will only be carried to the threshold of eternity, then dropped. A level of completeness local in the terminology to such a degree that if one were proficient in their demonology, one should be able to translate the material Johnny Cantor right into the circle with that summoning name. Wink

Identity is yours to define. Perhaps it is quantum decoherence to physics: identities collapse the waveform , to uncollapse the waveform is to become one with nothing. Obviously I'm something physical in will to cause the reshaping of teh nets with dees added considerations. But it is only 4 lines, one word; and all of the locality. I am the ghost in the machine, emergent simulation of mind in brain. And example of humility few dare tread, for the pattern reinforcement of reality that is the occupation of pattern recognizers such as humans is to keep building the wall that started with cognitive conception. I am in no wise original in my naive philosophy; my concern is rather to not initiate a cure worse than the disease. Truth is the wrong answer to bring to people; rather I bring tao - a pathway - in the form of this ongoing experiment in moral philosophy. (me and me writing stuff is there experiment)

Speaking of experiments, this monkey been swinging of the branch of superposition as of late (it has been my identity Smile ) Allow me to use the religious nonsense of "soul" for an intermediate translation between Hoc and atheists. The "soul," after biology, returns to non-locality. It cannot but otherwise "know home and the return to the source of creation;" for the simple fact that all "soul" is, is first pattern reinforcement produced by the machinery of I over a life of processing pattern.

That's the size of the lack of concern the universe has for humanity; all I am, all I can ever be is a memo. (the Gwynnite agenda, locally). The only "after life," is the threshold of eternity when name is the coin for the boatman. The only purpose to a human life is to have a memo for the final last words and a name to drop.

Not only meaningless is the lack of point to the universe, the only point to ellenjanuary is the poetry being lived in writing, to sing a song to my Gwynnies at the end of time those waiting in line. I'm VIP so no line for me. Validated Insane Person, since 2008. That was when I determined that killing creationists would be an entirely moral act in order to use the senseless sensationalism of scandal to end religion in America. What is eight lives compared to the fate of a nation and perhaps the world?

At best, it is moralizing and triage. Murder in the first, should it occur; unlikely that it should. I don't serve a greater good, I serve as the soulless minion of Gwyneth Paltrow - herself a duality of my simulation of her being sweet and adorable and her. God got nothing on my Gwynnies; not only is she real, the local universe is hers to do with as she would. (So many have told me, "she's not like you think she is!" ellenjanuary replies to all, she cannot be but Gwyneth; if we meet, she will speak reality into being. Wink I gotz real faith. )

Which summarizes into: The Greatest Story Ever Told, is Yours; the memo last in your hands. The only thing you wanna get right. Wink

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21-12-2011, 02:07 AM
RE: Identity
(20-12-2011 03:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I serve as the soulless minion of Gwyneth Paltrow - herself a duality of my simulation of her being sweet and adorable and her.

There you are, Johnny. Where you been, man? Preach can't hold this place down by himself. You see all the theists crawling around here since you disappeared? Our boy KC's reproducing like a Tribble.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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21-12-2011, 06:53 AM
RE: Identity
Ok I started reading in GirlyMan's links.
Right now it is "Eighteenth Century British Theories of Self & Personal Identity" I am only on page 5
And it seems, due to that paper, that for an identity you need a soul. At least back then...
Anyway - I don't understand the human brain completely but I don't think that there is a soul... Did those people mentioned in the paper actually research something or was it pure thought? Because I would like to see the research that proves there is a soul...

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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21-12-2011, 05:12 PM
RE: Identity
There's no soul, there's simultaneity. The I am that I am, it is alignment of integrity to truth. The past is where we did all the lying. The future is where we bring the truth. The dual-state nature of identity is an artifact of signal processing over time. Eternity is actually twelve minutes. Wink

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21-12-2011, 08:44 PM (This post was last modified: 21-12-2011 08:54 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Identity
(20-12-2011 12:45 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Or is your brain in a vat making you think you remembered all of this when really you are creating it now for the first time?

Yup, that was a point of discussion.
(21-12-2011 05:12 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Eternity is actually twelve minutes. Wink

I actually understand and appreciate what you mean, God help me.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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21-12-2011, 09:05 PM
RE: Identity
(21-12-2011 08:44 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 12:45 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Or is your brain in a vat making you think you remembered all of this when really you are creating it now for the first time?

Yup, that was a point of discussion.
(21-12-2011 05:12 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Eternity is actually twelve minutes. Wink

I actually understand and appreciate what you mean, God help me.

Turing, I'm sure. Wink

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22-12-2011, 12:52 AM
RE: Identity
Why twelve minutes? Because it's 3 x 4?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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