Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
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22-06-2017, 12:50 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 01:08 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 12:29 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  No. A strawman is specifically attacking an argument not proposed by your opponents and treating the argument as if it was theirs. There is not one iota of responsibility of your enemy to explain why you believe what you believe, or to provide guesses on statistics that support your opponent's beliefs or anything of the sort.

That's the definition of a strawman fallacy. The term strawman can be used in different ways for example to represent an easy victim, a boogeyman or a banner bearer. My usage of the term strawman doesn't refer explicitly or only to the strawman fallacy, but to the later, broader use of the term to describe a manipulative rethorical strategy and practice commonly used by propagandist. While related, the two things, the strawman in logical argumentation and the strawman in propaganda, aren't the same.

On another point, yes, it's the duty of anybody who wants to make an honest critique of any idea or ideology to provide at least a measure of context. In fact, it's the first step. It's important to put the said idea in relation to the wider body of work of a person as to make sure you aren't ''quote mining'' them or deforming their intent of communication (correctly identifiying the intent of communication of the piece criticised is also important). It's also important to provide a measure of context on where that person stands within her own ideological movement. For example, is that person a nobody on the fringe, widely considered as a clown by the mainstream or academic proponent of the ideology or is it a reputable, well known person considered an authority on the field. In other words, is it the Pope or some random, probably crazy street preacher. It also is the duty of any honest critique to mention her own ideological point of views and the intent of the critique as to not confuse people as to why she is choosing to criticise this specific piece of work and what she wishes to achieve by it. That's the basis of any good methodology in humanities and social science.

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22-06-2017, 12:55 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
Being concerned with improving social justice for excluded groups has not always been maligned. When I was growing up it was just called championing civil rights, a very positive thing.

But framing it as being a "social justice warrior" impugns the entire genre with the same brush. Not every civil rights advocate is obsessed with political correctness nor do they "play the victim" at every opportunity. That again is just an attempt by the closeted and entitled bigots of the world to keep resources to themselves.

Lefties aren't all idiotic and no one who did not support Trump is responsible for 'causing' others to vote for him. That is just more slick right wing branding. Don't be fooled.

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Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

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22-06-2017, 01:05 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 12:50 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(22-06-2017 12:29 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  No. A strawman is specifically attacking an argument not proposed by your opponents and treating the argument as if it was theirs. There is not one iota of responsibility of your enemy to explain why you believe what you believe, or to provide guesses on statistics that support your opponent's beliefs or anything of the sort.

That's the definition of a strawman fallacy. The term strawman can be used in different ways for example to represent an easy victim, a boogeyman or a banner bearer. My usage of the term strawman doesn't refer explicitly or only to the strawman fallacy, but to the later, broader use of the term to descrive a manipulative rethorical strategy and practice commonly used by propagandist. While related, the two things aren't the same.

On another point, yes, its the duty of anybody who wants to make an honest critique of any idea or ideology to provide at least a measure of context. It's important to put the said idea in relation to the wider body of work of a person as to make sure you aren't ''quote mining'' them or deforming their intent of communication (correctly identifiying the intent of communication of the piece criticised is also important). It's also important to provide a measure of context on where that person stands within her own ideological movement. For example, is that person a nobody on the fringe, widely considered as a clown by the mainstream or academic proponent of the ideology or is it a reputable, well known person considered an authority on the field. In other words, is it the Pope or some random, probably crazy street preacher. It also is the duty of any honest critique to mention her own ideological point of views and the intent of the critique as to not confuse people as to why you are choosing to criticise this specific piece of work and what you wish to achieve by it. That's the basis of any good methodology in humanities and social science.

I think I have a better understanding of what you meant now, to which I would saw just raises another problem many of us Atheists and non-believers have rightly point out.

Please let me know if I still misunderstood you, but what I understood is that your say it is a strawman to lump you and I in with the nutters because that's not what we believe. However, put yourself in the opposition's shoes. Most people who call themselves liberal were Hillary/Bernie supporters (not I). So were most of the SJW types. If that's what it is to be 'liberal' (from my perspective it isn't) then you start to run into the No True Scotsman fallacy. If you and I, for example don't clearly and loudly say, "No, there not representative of me, and there loons", then shy shouldn't they think they are part of your group? I don't lump the average Baptist or Lutheran in with the Westboro Baptist Church, because they loudly told them to fuck off in so many words over and over, and a good thing for them to do so too.

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22-06-2017, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 01:28 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
@Dark Light

That's the confusing and difficult thing to explain. The ''loons'' are part of the same group than me. There are ''loons'' in every groups. They don't belong to a ''special loony group'' and one should never try to dissociate or ''purge'' the loons from ones group at the threat of turning into a dogmatic groups. The ''loons'' are simply not a good representation of the group they belong to. They shouldn't be considered and treated as such. ''Loons'' can be criticised and hated by other members of the same group and sometime they should, but it doesn't make them any less part of the group, simply even less representative. The WBC members are still Christians and Evangelicals, even if they are criticised and hated by other Christians and Evangelicals. TERFs are still feminists even if they are hated and criticised by feminists. In the end, the presence of loons is inevitable. There are a lot of stupid and motivated people, but one must remain critical and open minded enough to not judge an idea solely (or mostly) on the basis of who supports it, especially if those who support it are represented by the worst of them instead of the best or at least an average member.

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22-06-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 11:46 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(22-06-2017 09:19 AM)Emma Wrote:  I'm a SJW. I guess Trump is my fault, guys. Sorry about that. Everyone who voted for him did so because of me, not because they are fucking stupid, or because they are ignorant, or because they were desperate for a change that they felt only an outsider could bring, or because they were honest-to-god neo-Nazis, or whateverthefuck reason. It's because of me and my mambie-pambie social justice causes. And those who voted third party or didn't vote at all did so because of me, also. People hated Hillary because of my social justice causes.

So uh... sorry y'all. Rolleyes

If you're wallowing so deep in the faux victimhood that you are unable to tell the difference between true social justice, and the SJW cry-bullies then you should be ridiculed for being at fault. You will get no sympathy from me.

It's like you think I was looking for sympathy. Facepalm

Look- I am exactly what GGers would have labeled a SJW. I don't feel any shame in that whatsoever.

If you want to find some extreme example of leftist behavior and pretend that it's somehow the norm, then your argument is faulty.

Also "SJW cry-bullies"... LMAO In a thread crying about SJWs, too. Laugh out load
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22-06-2017, 01:35 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 01:40 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 12:18 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(22-06-2017 12:06 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You didn't ask that, you're trying to bait me into defending other people's actions and opinions. You question highlights your own blatant disingenuous behavior.

Seriously, how are you this shit at communicating? No wonder nobody wants to Skype with you...

You defended that rubric that those ideas fit under. Not me. I offered you the opportunity to denounce is, and you rejected that opportunity. I presume you don't genuinely support those things, but if so you should denounce it. I think you didn't because you don't want to admit you were wrong to knowingly lump that crazy regressive shit in with 'social justice' to make you sound like the good guy while demonizing me. What you did is disingenuous.

Whatever floats your boat, tosspot.

You are way past the point of being capable of sensible discourse on the matter.

I mean for fucks sake, you think that 'dirt-fucker' is a literal insult, that other people are idiots for not intuiting your silence as acceptance, and that using double standards doesn't make you a hypocrite.

Why should I have taken your shit at face value? The bit about sharia law just sounded like more bait from the peanut galley. I'll defend my own views, not have you foist others on me. But sure, act like me not dancing to your song is a victory (silence is acceptance, right, jackass?). After your 'idiotic liberals' double standard, I expect that's par for the fucking course. What reason do I have to do anything but just take the piss out of this discussion for my own amusement?

Talking with you remains as painfully unenlightening as ever.

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22-06-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 01:20 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Dark Light

That's the confusing and difficult thing to explain. The ''loons'' are part of the same group than me. There are ''loons'' in every groups. They don't belong to a ''special loony group'' and one should never try to dissociate or ''purge'' the loons from ones group at the threat of turning into a dogmatic groups. The ''loons'' are simply not a good representation of the group they belong to. They shouldn't be considered and treated as such. ''Loons'' can be criticised and hated by other members of the same group and sometime they should, but it doesn't make them any less part of the group, simply even less representative. The WBC members are still Christians and Evangelicals, even if they are criticised and hated by other Christians and Evangelicals. TERFs are still feminists even if they are hated and criticised by feminists. In the end, the presence of loons is inevitable. There are a lot of stupid and motivated people, but one must remain critical and open minded enough to not judge an idea solely (or mostly) on the basis of who supports it, especially if those who support it are represented by the worst of them instead of the best or at least an average member.

I think we just disagree on group dynamics, and our viewpoints are irreconcilable. I could never look at a group of people who abhore individualism and personal liberty and think "Yes, they are part of the same group as me". I am repulsed by that sort of mentality, and renounce them. They are nothing like me. I am nothing like them. In no reasonable sense of the word should we ever be grouped together.

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22-06-2017, 01:52 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 01:35 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(22-06-2017 12:18 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  You defended that rubric that those ideas fit under. Not me. I offered you the opportunity to denounce is, and you rejected that opportunity. I presume you don't genuinely support those things, but if so you should denounce it. I think you didn't because you don't want to admit you were wrong to knowingly lump that crazy regressive shit in with 'social justice' to make you sound like the good guy while demonizing me. What you did is disingenuous.

Whatever floats your boat, tosspot.

You are way past the point of being capable of sensible discourse on the matter.

I mean for fucks sake, you think that 'dirt-fucker' is a literal insult, that other people are idiots for not intuiting your silence as acceptance, and that using double standards doesn't make you a hypocrite.

Why should I have taken your shit at face value? The bit about sharia law just sounded like more bait from the peanut galley. I'll defend my own views, not have you foist others on me. But sure, act like me not dancing to your song is a victory (silence is acceptance, right, jackass?). After your 'idiotic liberals' double standard, I expect that's par for the fucking course. What reason do I have to do anything but just take the piss out of this discussion for my own amusement?

Talking with you remains as painfully unenlightening as ever.
Rolleyes

I think this conversation has run it's course. I think you've been every bit as frustrating and disingenuous as you claim you feel about me. I will resist the temptation to return fire and just say that I hope that we can have some kind of reconciliation at a later date.

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22-06-2017, 01:54 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 01:30 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(22-06-2017 11:46 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  If you're wallowing so deep in the faux victimhood that you are unable to tell the difference between true social justice, and the SJW cry-bullies then you should be ridiculed for being at fault. You will get no sympathy from me.

It's like you think I was looking for sympathy. Facepalm

Look- I am exactly what GGers would have labeled a SJW. I don't feel any shame in that whatsoever.

If you want to find some extreme example of leftist behavior and pretend that it's somehow the norm, then your argument is faulty.

Also "SJW cry-bullies"... LMAO In a thread crying about SJWs, too. Laugh out load

Don't know what a GG is. Also, never said any of this was the norm. I've said exactly the opposite, had you payed any attention whatsoever.

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22-06-2017, 02:03 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 01:54 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(22-06-2017 01:30 PM)Emma Wrote:  It's like you think I was looking for sympathy. Facepalm

Look- I am exactly what GGers would have labeled a SJW. I don't feel any shame in that whatsoever.

If you want to find some extreme example of leftist behavior and pretend that it's somehow the norm, then your argument is faulty.

Also "SJW cry-bullies"... LMAO In a thread crying about SJWs, too. Laugh out load

Don't know what a GG is. Also, never said any of this was the norm. I've said exactly the opposite, had you payed any attention whatsoever.

A GGer is a GamerGater, as Girly referenced earlier. GGers were infamous for demonizing the term SJW a few years back in their attacks on several women developers/journalists/critics/bloggers/etc. and other "players" in gaming world. Basically, they'd have labeled anyone an SJW who is a feminist and advocate for a series of social causes.

Regardless- as epronovost pointed out- the fringe extreme examples of leftists are simply not respected enough or given enough credence to cause the effect you seem to think.
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