Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
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22-06-2017, 02:27 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 12:50 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(22-06-2017 12:29 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  No. A strawman is specifically attacking an argument not proposed by your opponents and treating the argument as if it was theirs. There is not one iota of responsibility of your enemy to explain why you believe what you believe, or to provide guesses on statistics that support your opponent's beliefs or anything of the sort.

That's the definition of a strawman fallacy. The term strawman can be used in different ways for example to represent an easy victim, a boogeyman or a banner bearer. My usage of the term strawman doesn't refer explicitly or only to the strawman fallacy, but to the later, broader use of the term to describe a manipulative rethorical strategy and practice commonly used by propagandist. While related, the two things, the strawman in logical argumentation and the strawman in propaganda, aren't the same.

This strawman business is just a red herring.

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22-06-2017, 02:34 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 02:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  This strawman business is just a red herring.

And it's been picked clean, too. To. The. Bone. Drinking Beverage

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22-06-2017, 03:05 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 03:29 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 01:46 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I think we just disagree on group dynamics, and our viewpoints are irreconcilable. I could never look at a group of people who abhore individualism and personal liberty and think "Yes, they are part of the same group as me". I am repulsed by that sort of mentality, and renounce them. They are nothing like me. I am nothing like them. In no reasonable sense of the word should we ever be grouped together.

I don't think our viewpoints on group dynamics are irreconcilable. Let's look a bit deeper into it. You claim being strongly in support to individualism and personal liberty. There is definetely ''loons'' who support individualism and personal liberty. Let's just take the example of pedophile apologists. They support individualism and personal liberty. The core of their argument is that the State cannot decide who can and cannot conscent to sex based on their age. That minimal age of conscent is an attack on personal freedom. I don't think you support their position, but you do are part of the group of people who support individualism and personal liberty same as they do. You just disagree with how far individualism and personal liberty should be taken. Are pedophile apologists good representatives of the group who advocate for individualism and personal liberty (those I would call libertarians)? No, absolutly not. Would me pointing out constantly the flaws of pedophile apologists without ever contextualising them be a dishonest way of looking at libertarians? I do believe so.

The women in your example isn't opposed to LGBTQ rights, she supports them. Are her arguments any good? Not really. Could she be considered representative of all the people who support LGBTQ rights, neither. Is she part of the group who support LGBTQ rights? Definetley. Is lampooning her and making her a representative of the supporter LGBTQ rights without contextualising her work honest? Absolutly not.

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22-06-2017, 09:28 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 01:52 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I think this conversation has run it's course. I think you've been every bit as frustrating and disingenuous as you claim you feel about me. I will resist the temptation to return fire and just say that I hope that we can have some kind of reconciliation at a later date.

I hope so.

Butting heads with muffs or the old man hasn't stopped me yet.

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22-06-2017, 09:36 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(22-06-2017 02:03 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(22-06-2017 01:54 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Don't know what a GG is. Also, never said any of this was the norm. I've said exactly the opposite, had you payed any attention whatsoever.

A GGer is a GamerGater, as Girly referenced earlier. GGers were infamous for demonizing the term SJW a few years back in their attacks on several women developers/journalists/critics/bloggers/etc. and other "players" in gaming world. Basically, they'd have labeled anyone an SJW who is a feminist and advocate for a series of social causes.

Regardless- as epronovost pointed out- the fringe extreme examples of leftists are simply not respected enough or given enough credence to cause the effect you seem to think.


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23-06-2017, 07:21 AM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2017 07:37 AM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
I'm not a GGer but Sarkeesian is wrong on so many things. Also people are angry because they believe they're unfairly being associated with sexism due to the types of games they play.

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23-06-2017, 07:52 AM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(23-06-2017 07:21 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  I'm not a GGer but Sarkeesian is wrong on so many things. Also people are angry because they believe they're unfairly being associated with sexism due to the types of games they play.

Sarkeesian is right on so many things, too. I think the Feminist Frequency videos are well worth watching. But that's my opinion. Tongue

Also- she points out a lot of ways that games are problematic or tropes that exist in gaming. That doesn't suggest that those games are objectively bad or the people who enjoy them are bad- or even sexist. Just that those things are worth recognizing.
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23-06-2017, 07:59 AM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(23-06-2017 07:52 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 07:21 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  I'm not a GGer but Sarkeesian is wrong on so many things. Also people are angry because they believe they're unfairly being associated with sexism due to the types of games they play.

Sarkeesian is right on so many things, too. I think the Feminist Frequency videos are well worth watching. But that's my opinion. Tongue

Also- she points out a lot of ways that games are problematic or tropes that exist in gaming. That doesn't suggest that those games are objectively bad or the people who enjoy them are bad- or even sexist. Just that those things are worth recognizing.

But her entire point is that those things are harmful, yes? So if people play those games, they would adopt various beliefs about women they wouldn't have had otherwise.

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23-06-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(23-06-2017 07:59 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 07:52 AM)Emma Wrote:  Sarkeesian is right on so many things, too. I think the Feminist Frequency videos are well worth watching. But that's my opinion. Tongue

Also- she points out a lot of ways that games are problematic or tropes that exist in gaming. That doesn't suggest that those games are objectively bad or the people who enjoy them are bad- or even sexist. Just that those things are worth recognizing.

But her entire point is that those things are harmful, yes? So if people play those games, they would adopt various beliefs about women they wouldn't have had otherwise.

And your point is... ? Is she not entitled to have an opinion and promote it?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-06-2017, 08:12 AM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(23-06-2017 07:59 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(23-06-2017 07:52 AM)Emma Wrote:  Sarkeesian is right on so many things, too. I think the Feminist Frequency videos are well worth watching. But that's my opinion. Tongue

Also- she points out a lot of ways that games are problematic or tropes that exist in gaming. That doesn't suggest that those games are objectively bad or the people who enjoy them are bad- or even sexist. Just that those things are worth recognizing.

But her entire point is that those things are harmful, yes? So if people play those games, they would adopt various beliefs about women they wouldn't have had otherwise.

Not necessarily- the point is that these tropes are a pattern in gaming. The individual games themselves aren't bad games because they have tropes in them that aren't constructive, or may even contribute to problems. But that doesn't make the game something you should avoid. It does hopefully help future gaming devs look for ways to improve characters, stories, and art.

It's not to say that you can't play them or you're a bad person or that you should avoid playing any game that has problematic themes, etc. But if you recognize tropes for what they are, then that's better than simply being blindly affected by them, right?

At least, that's my point of view. I like some games that are problematic. I still love those games even though I recognize parts of it could portray women better, or people of color better, etc.
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