Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
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21-06-2017, 12:32 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
Also I prefer text as a medium. More time for considered responses.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-06-2017, 12:57 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
@Dark Light

I think you are severely overestimating the ''social justice warrior drama'' importance in the political landscape of the United States (or of any other country). This ''drama'' is mostly affecting voters between the age of 18 to 30, the group that shows up the least at the poles and spend the most time arguing in the comment section of Youtube, posting vlogs or invest themselves in political threads on Reddit, Tumblr or 4chan. Beside those people, the entire concept that ''social justice warrior'' is a bit murky and, frankly, isn't important. A strong plurality of electors aren't interested in politics at all. Of those who have an interest in politics, very few consume in good quantity political analysis, political history books or read each party's program to orient themselves. Most people read one newspaper, Watch one news outlet on a more or less regular fashion and maybe one political satire show and that's pretty much it. Even people who have an interest in politic seldom launch themselves in research and arguments on internet, thus are relatively unaffected by this whole internet drama that exploded in this decade.

The real political echo chamber isn't fanatical political activist hiding in their safe spaces (though there are certainly a couple of these), but people getting their information only from one source (or very little), thus being exposed only to one editiorial stance and having only surface knowledge of various issues, not because of malice or stupidity, but because they have other interests. Trump won, not because of internet drama and silly blogs, but because he managed to represented an anti-establishment choice. The American people, no matter their political inclination, have the feeling their country isn't doing fine, that it sits in a quagmire of problems, many of them undefined, that the political establishment, Democrat or Republican, cannot or doesn't want to solve. Republicans won because they chose a candidate that had no experience in politic who managed to sell himself as a trendsetter and an iconoclast. In 2008, the role were reversed. Democrat chose the epidemy of establishment, a well known, seasonned, political figure. Most elector would have been completly incapable of telling you what Trump or Hillary had in mind as politics beside the few obvious and vague things like Border Wall, no more Obamacare and no more illegal immigrants, the rest was just drowned in sea of indifference, noise and scandals. Notice that I didn't mention a single big electoral promise of Clinton, simply because her social project for her country seemed to be things as usual and nothing else. That's completly unacceptable to a large portion of Americans no matter their political inclination. The status quo doesn't sell well anymore.

Last, but not least, people vote as much for people as for ideas. Clinton, despite all of her technocratic knowledge and skills is a relaively quiet, uninteresting and bland person. She doesn't radiate leadership as its commonly portraid in our culture. She's generaly careful with her words, as a strategic mindset, prefers to operate in secret and discression and hides her personnality and interests. Donals Trump was her anti-thesis. He is loud, confident to the point of boldness, he speaks without filter, improvise and ''follow his guts'', act in brazen fashion and is easy to relate to or at least understand as a person. Trump is crass, a bully and incredibly ignorant for a man of his station, but that's how most ''Blue Collar Leaders'' are represented. He as almost all the traits of an action movie hero, loud, patriotic, violent, aggressive, brazen and without filter. Thats the most ubiquitous form of leader in the US culture and the most appreciated.

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21-06-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(21-06-2017 12:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  Also I prefer text as a medium. More time for considered responses.

It's also easier to shut down gish gallop in my opinion. In a debate with a motivated and confident oppostion on a broad and poorly defined subject, gish galloping is a serious problem.

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21-06-2017, 01:01 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(21-06-2017 12:31 PM)morondog Wrote:  ... What strawman did you think I was erecting ...

An argument made of bricks he can't refute. Most of the time someone complains about "strawman" arguments they've just been smacked with one that isn't.
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21-06-2017, 03:17 PM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2017 03:26 PM by Mathilda.)
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(21-06-2017 09:58 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  The systemic social justice warrior intelligentsia, who propelled Trump to victory, and spur on racial tensions, double-down on their idiocy.

The latest pièce de résistance. Jesus is the first tranny.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/suzanne-de...06134.html

I would not have known this wasn't an article from The Onion if not for the URL.

What's more interesting is how you are using it as an example. I have no idea why right wing Americans seem to see all non right-wing Americans as a homogenous group of people and dehumanise them the way that they do.

What we have here is an article that demonstrates just shows up the illogical things that Christians believe in.

The left did not propel Trump to victory, Trump voters did. You see many countries a have a system called a democracy whereby voters have a single vote each, they are all counted up with each candidate trying to get as many votes as possible.

Honestly, I had heard that the American education system was bad (hence the reason Trump got in) but your posts really exemplifies it.
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21-06-2017, 03:24 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(21-06-2017 12:09 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  The purpose of a audio conversation (or video) is that I can cover 100 yards verbally that I an cover 1 yard via text.

Sounds like you're relying on a disingenuous argument then if it only works if presented in a certain way. Much like a gish gallop only works at winning a debate people because they don't have time to think about it too much. Except it never actually does work because it never convinces anyone. People just don't get a chance to properly reply.

You know, there's a reason why scientific results are written up as papers and are peer reviewed instead of presentations.
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21-06-2017, 08:37 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(21-06-2017 03:17 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(21-06-2017 09:58 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  The systemic social justice warrior intelligentsia, who propelled Trump to victory, and spur on racial tensions, double-down on their idiocy.

The latest pièce de résistance. Jesus is the first tranny.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/suzanne-de...06134.html

I would not have known this wasn't an article from The Onion if not for the URL.

What's more interesting is how you are using it as an example. I have no idea why right wing Americans seem to see all non right-wing Americans as a homogenous group of people and dehumanise them the way that they do.

What we have here is an article that demonstrates just shows up the illogical things that Christians believe in.

The left did not propel Trump to victory, Trump voters did. You see many countries a have a system called a democracy whereby voters have a single vote each, they are all counted up with each candidate trying to get as many votes as possible.

Honestly, I had heard that the American education system was bad (hence the reason Trump got in) but your posts really exemplifies it.
No one propelled Trump to victory except the Electoral College. It's certainly possible to debate Hillary's campaign strategy, but she won 2.9 million more votes than Trump did. I think that must be taken into account in discussions like this.
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21-06-2017, 08:54 PM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2017 09:07 PM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
You could argue that a Trump-like president was inevitable at some point given the way the country was going and given how much income inequality is a factor in society. At some point, some rich asshole opportunist has to sneak their way in. Also, ultimately this is a result of Bush's failures. People voted for Obama because Bush failed. Then Obama failed. Now Trump. Also the political correctness angle fails to take into account the fact that the mainstream media is shit at informing people, which made people trust Trump a lot more.

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21-06-2017, 09:07 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(21-06-2017 12:57 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Dark Light

I think you are severely overestimating the ''social justice warrior drama'' importance in the political landscape of the United States (or of any other country). This ''drama'' is mostly affecting voters between the age of 18 to 30, the group that shows up the least at the poles and spend the most time arguing in the comment section of Youtube, posting vlogs or invest themselves in political threads on Reddit, Tumblr or 4chan. Beside those people, the entire concept that ''social justice warrior'' is a bit murky and, frankly, isn't important. A strong plurality of electors aren't interested in politics at all. Of those who have an interest in politics, very few consume in good quantity political analysis, political history books or read each party's program to orient themselves. Most people read one newspaper, Watch one news outlet on a more or less regular fashion and maybe one political satire show and that's pretty much it. Even people who have an interest in politic seldom launch themselves in research and arguments on internet, thus are relatively unaffected by this whole internet drama that exploded in this decade.

The real political echo chamber isn't fanatical political activist hiding in their safe spaces (though there are certainly a couple of these), but people getting their information only from one source (or very little), thus being exposed only to one editiorial stance and having only surface knowledge of various issues, not because of malice or stupidity, but because they have other interests. Trump won, not because of internet drama and silly blogs, but because he managed to represented an anti-establishment choice. The American people, no matter their political inclination, have the feeling their country isn't doing fine, that it sits in a quagmire of problems, many of them undefined, that the political establishment, Democrat or Republican, cannot or doesn't want to solve. Republicans won because they chose a candidate that had no experience in politic who managed to sell himself as a trendsetter and an iconoclast. In 2008, the role were reversed. Democrat chose the epidemy of establishment, a well known, seasonned, political figure. Most elector would have been completly incapable of telling you what Trump or Hillary had in mind as politics beside the few obvious and vague things like Border Wall, no more Obamacare and no more illegal immigrants, the rest was just drowned in sea of indifference, noise and scandals. Notice that I didn't mention a single big electoral promise of Clinton, simply because her social project for her country seemed to be things as usual and nothing else. That's completly unacceptable to a large portion of Americans no matter their political inclination. The status quo doesn't sell well anymore.

Last, but not least, people vote as much for people as for ideas. Clinton, despite all of her technocratic knowledge and skills is a relaively quiet, uninteresting and bland person. She doesn't radiate leadership as its commonly portraid in our culture. She's generaly careful with her words, as a strategic mindset, prefers to operate in secret and discression and hides her personnality and interests. Donals Trump was her anti-thesis. He is loud, confident to the point of boldness, he speaks without filter, improvise and ''follow his guts'', act in brazen fashion and is easy to relate to or at least understand as a person. Trump is crass, a bully and incredibly ignorant for a man of his station, but that's how most ''Blue Collar Leaders'' are represented. He as almost all the traits of an action movie hero, loud, patriotic, violent, aggressive, brazen and without filter. Thats the most ubiquitous form of leader in the US culture and the most appreciated.

I actually agree with much of what you have said. I think we may disagree on our assessment on the effect, or more precisely the magnitude of the effect, of the social justice warrior cult. I think the majority of Trump voters voted for him in spite of his weaknesses. They were willing to accept a bully, and a braggart, someone without a political compass, or filter, someone who doesn't know when a modicum of respect is required, someone who is narcissistic and insecure because he wasn't calling them deplorable, racist, poor, and privileged. It is undeniable that the intelligentsia was pushing propaganda that flies in the face of basic scientific and at times quantifiable fact. Now, of course only a fool could not recognize that there wasn't a confluence of factors that were required in order to to make his election possible. The SJWs were only a part of the equitation that lead to his victory, but without that part of the equation it would not have been possible for him to win. This article illustrates perfectly that the bein pensant narrative does not fit within reality.

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21-06-2017, 09:09 PM
RE: Idiotic Lefties Are Responsible for the Trump Effect
(21-06-2017 08:37 PM)LifelongAtheist Wrote:  No one propelled Trump to victory except the Electoral College. It's certainly possible to debate Hillary's campaign strategy, but she won 2.9 million more votes than Trump did. I think that must be taken into account in discussions like this.

Right. That's why our history is littered with Trump like presidencies for hundreds of years. The Electoral College is a Trump-producing machine.

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