If God is the only source of objective morality...
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24-06-2014, 04:27 PM
If God is the only source of objective morality...
To what standard is Abraham appealing to when he asks God to consider the morality of destroying Sodom?

Genesis 22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[b] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[c] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

How would it even be a coherent question if God were the only source of objective morals?

Does this not mean apologists who argue God is the source of all morality contradict God's word?

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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24-06-2014, 05:20 PM
RE: If God is the only source of objective morality...
(24-06-2014 04:27 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  To what standard is Abraham appealing to when he asks God to consider the morality of destroying Sodom?

God's standard.

(24-06-2014 04:27 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  How would it even be a coherent question if God were the only source of objective morals?

It is coherent because Abraham is essentially saying: "God, surely you will not sweep away the righteous with the wicked because you are Judge of all the earth?"

He is asking a rhetorical question and doing so as an appeal to God to spare the rightheous if there were any in the city to be spared.

(24-06-2014 04:27 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Does this not mean apologists who argue God is the source of all morality contradict God's word?

Nope.
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24-06-2014, 05:31 PM
RE: If God is the only source of objective morality...
I don't remember enough of the story, but, just out of curiosity, were there innocents supposedly destroyed in Sodom? Or Gomorrah?

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24-06-2014, 05:37 PM
RE: If God is the only source of objective morality...
(24-06-2014 05:31 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  I don't remember enough of the story, but, just out of curiosity, were there innocents supposedly destroyed in Sodom? Or Gomorrah?

God destroys innocents all the time. At this point the only thing that separates him from AM is how full of shit he is.

“You see… sometimes life gives you lemons. And when that happens… you need to find some spell that makes lemons explode, because lemons are terrible. I only ate them once and I can say with certainty they are the worst fruit. If life gave me lemons, I would view it as nothing short of a declaration of war."
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24-06-2014, 05:59 PM
RE: If God is the only source of objective morality...
(24-06-2014 05:37 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  God destroys innocents all the time.

God must exist in order to destroy something.

Unless you mean to actually say that God does not exist because if He did, He would not destroy "innocent" human beings but "innocent" human beings are destroyed so therefore God does not exist.

Now if you are an atheist, I ask you to give evidence for your premises or either admit you have graced us with yet another opinion.
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24-06-2014, 06:02 PM
RE: If God is the only source of objective morality...
(24-06-2014 05:59 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 05:37 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  God destroys innocents all the time.

God must exist in order to destroy something.

Unless you mean to actually say that God does not exist because if He did, He would not destroy "innocent" human beings but "innocent" human beings are destroyed so therefore God does not exist.

Now if you are an atheist, I ask you to give evidence for your premises or either admit you have graced us with yet another opinion.

Are you functionally retarded? Do we to spell out everything for you?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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24-06-2014, 06:07 PM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2014 06:12 PM by DemonicLemon.)
RE: If God is the only source of objective morality...
(24-06-2014 05:59 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 05:37 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  God destroys innocents all the time.

God must exist in order to destroy something.

Unless you mean to actually say that God does not exist because if He did, He would not destroy "innocent" human beings but "innocent" human beings are destroyed so therefore God does not exist.

Now if you are an atheist, I ask you to give evidence for your premises or either admit you have graced us with yet another opinion.
I thought it was obvious I was referring in-canon of the story.

That would be similar to saying "Ms. Fortune of Skullgirls always fights through self-dismemberment", which although I don't believe she exists (which I would love if she did), that's still true for in-canon, but I didn't realize I have to always use "if they existed." when talking about fiction.

Another set of examples:
Alduin's job is to end the world.
The Mask of Majora corrupts those who wear it.
Kratos and Asura often kill whatever god they come across.

All of these characters have one thing in common with your god. They don't exist in our world, but we pretend they do while we enjoy the work they are in.

Remember that I also mention AM in that very post you (didn't completely )quote, who I compared blatantly to your god.

As for the evidence in-story of god killing innocents,
Lot's Wife
Babies, non-humans during the great flood.
First Borns in Egypt, both of slaves and Egyptians simply because God kept hardening Pharaoh's heart, so even then, God prevented one's innocence to excuse his petty behavior.

“You see… sometimes life gives you lemons. And when that happens… you need to find some spell that makes lemons explode, because lemons are terrible. I only ate them once and I can say with certainty they are the worst fruit. If life gave me lemons, I would view it as nothing short of a declaration of war."
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24-06-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: If God is the only source of objective morality...
There is no such thing as objective morality. It is a red herring whose sole purpose is to intimidate non theists.

Religion is proof that invisible men can obscure your vision.
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24-06-2014, 07:01 PM
RE: If God is the only source of objective morality...
(24-06-2014 06:07 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 05:59 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God must exist in order to destroy something.

Unless you mean to actually say that God does not exist because if He did, He would not destroy "innocent" human beings but "innocent" human beings are destroyed so therefore God does not exist.

Now if you are an atheist, I ask you to give evidence for your premises or either admit you have graced us with yet another opinion.
I thought it was obvious I was referring in-canon of the story.

That would be similar to saying "Ms. Fortune of Skullgirls always fights through self-dismemberment", which although I don't believe she exists (which I would love if she did), that's still true for in-canon, but I didn't realize I have to always use "if they existed." when talking about fiction.

Another set of examples:
Alduin's job is to end the world.
The Mask of Majora corrupts those who wear it.
Kratos and Asura often kill whatever god they come across.

All of these characters have one thing in common with your god. They don't exist in our world, but we pretend they do while we enjoy the work they are in.

Remember that I also mention AM in that very post you (didn't completely )quote, who I compared blatantly to your god.

As for the evidence in-story of god killing innocents,
Lot's Wife
Babies, non-humans during the great flood.
First Borns in Egypt, both of slaves and Egyptians simply because God kept hardening Pharaoh's heart, so even then, God prevented one's innocence to excuse his petty behavior.

Ok thanks for attempting to clarify.
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24-06-2014, 07:09 PM
RE: If God is the only source of objective morality...
(24-06-2014 05:20 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 04:27 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  To what standard is Abraham appealing to when he asks God to consider the morality of destroying Sodom?

God's standard.

(24-06-2014 04:27 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  How would it even be a coherent question if God were the only source of objective morals?

It is coherent because Abraham is essentially saying: "God, surely you will not sweep away the righteous with the wicked because you are Judge of all the earth?"

He is asking a rhetorical question and doing so as an appeal to God to spare the rightheous if there were any in the city to be spared.

(24-06-2014 04:27 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Does this not mean apologists who argue God is the source of all morality contradict God's word?

Nope.

Yup.Laugh out load

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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