If Jesus Never Existed...
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
27-04-2017, 02:23 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(27-04-2017 02:16 PM)JesseB Wrote:  @SeaJay
Remove the if from "If jesus never existed." Personally I think you'll be far more likely to be historically accurate.
Richard Carrier "On the historicity of Jesus" Wink

As for fear, I think time will help the most. Finding others to fill an emotional need for community will help too, find folks that won't try to lie to you or give you bullshit. Actively practicing for lack of a better term higher order thinking, studying logic, learning how the world REALLY works will prolly go a long way too. And read dude. Read, read, read.
Will do and am doing Smile

Just looked up the whole "Was there a census taken when Mary and Joseph travelled to Bethlehem to fulfil a prophecy" and it confirmed my fears about trying to deal with contradictions and apologists. They have an answer for every thing! And (a) I'm not clever enough to discern who even wins half the arguments (b) rapidly running out of mental fortitude to keep trawling through web pages of text.

It's so frustrating it's driving me mental because there's rarely a clear winner. I think researching contradictions is a dead end for me. I'll have to try another tact.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-04-2017, 02:39 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(26-04-2017 01:06 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  ... if Christianity is true, then there's a judgement, and when I'm judged, I am more guilty than others because I was trying not to believe. And if I was trying not to believe, then it stands to reason that on some level, I did believe.
How does this make any sense at all?

Let's say that you are in a position of authority, a parent for example.
You make a claim to your kids about something. Perhaps you tell them the moon is made of cheese. Your kids say "Really, how do you know?"

Do you tell them to seek other sources for verification
OR
Do you tell them that they must believe what you tell them or face severe consequences.

Which response makes you out to be a loving parent seeking to educate your children towards a life of independent thought and hence independence?

Which response makes you out to be an overwhelming authority ruling via fear and setting himself up for eventual rebellion?

Which approach would a loving, perfect and just god take?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Stevil's post
27-04-2017, 04:12 PM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2017 04:15 PM by JesseB.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(27-04-2017 02:23 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 02:16 PM)JesseB Wrote:  @SeaJay
Remove the if from "If jesus never existed." Personally I think you'll be far more likely to be historically accurate.
Richard Carrier "On the historicity of Jesus" Wink

As for fear, I think time will help the most. Finding others to fill an emotional need for community will help too, find folks that won't try to lie to you or give you bullshit. Actively practicing for lack of a better term higher order thinking, studying logic, learning how the world REALLY works will prolly go a long way too. And read dude. Read, read, read.
Will do and am doing Smile

Just looked up the whole "Was there a census taken when Mary and Joseph travelled to Bethlehem to fulfil a prophecy" and it confirmed my fears about trying to deal with contradictions and apologists. They have an answer for every thing! And (a) I'm not clever enough to discern who even wins half the arguments (b) rapidly running out of mental fortitude to keep trawling through web pages of text.

It's so frustrating it's driving me mental because there's rarely a clear winner. I think researching contradictions is a dead end for me. I'll have to try another tact.

I highly recommend you read on the historicity of jesus.

One of Carriers MAIN goals is to investigate the methodologies used by "biblical" historians. All that shit you've read? Yea.... most likely based on all my research the ONLY thing they have is hearsay, they have no evidence of the events they claim, only writings written 1000 years later. And they justify using that because "someone writing about it wouldn't make it up or lie of course" When you dig into it, its just a giant game of telephone, he said this, and when you ask him he points to her, and him and him all the way back 1000 years and you never find any evidence that they are telling the truth. What I can tell you is Romans kept some pretty good documentation, if the stuff you said is true it'll be reflected on proper University websites. If you only find these events or evidence documented on Christian sites you might wanna ask why that is.

This is of course NOT how history is done. Instead of getting confused about what random websites tell you, learn what constitutes historical evidence, and how we determine what is reliable, and to what degree that information is reliable. I've been to conferences with my uncle (who was a pastor) where they talk about these topics the behind the scenes stuff you've likely never witnessed. I was brought along because I knew so much, and showed a fascination for the subject. I was called "little scholar" and yet.... I also knew it was all bullshit, even at 8 i could poke holes in all their asinine "evidence" because they hold such a low standard pretty much anything can be "evidence." I did enjoy going, on an intellectual level I am fascinated by it, but I've never failed to recognize it for the mythology that it is.

One of the fastest ways to loose a belief in god is to go to seminary... Just saying. Shouldn't that tell you something? Many sitting pastors and clergy do not believe in god at all.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes JesseB's post
27-04-2017, 04:17 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
@SeaJay

99% of the Internet is prolly false bullshit lol.... I'd just like to point that out. I never accept anything without some research and generally I prefer information from sites ending in .edu or .gov And with regards to .gov I mostly only trust content from NIH

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-04-2017, 04:25 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
@SeaJay, Might I suggest you stop reading christian sites for a while. Not to hide or avoid it, but instead focus on learning things like burden of proof, what constitutes evidence, why and how we determine evidence to be "empirical" what empirical evidence is. And finally how to look for and check sources.

For instance if you read on a blog about a census at the time of the birth of jesus, look on that site for that source. If that person cited another blog, that's a big red flag right there. Keep following the sources given and see if you can find ANYTHING ever sourced that could be considered factual or reliable, and then read that source (often these sites will cite a legit source hoping no one reads it, when you bother to fucking read it you'll find the source they cite says the exact opposite of their claim. They are bold faced lying, do that a few times and most likely your fear will turn to a deep anger as you realize how much you've been fucking lied to to prop up this phony bullshit, one thing is for sure, you won't fear hell anymore lol)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like JesseB's post
27-04-2017, 04:28 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 07:48 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  So the question is, if Jesus did not exist, how did the stories start? For me, I think there was a 'man' called Yeshua and he was an apocalyptic prophet of the Jews who spoke against their beliefs. They didn't like it so they brought up charges against him and had him killed.

That seems reasonable enough to me.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-04-2017, 04:40 PM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2017 05:39 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Jerusalem's economy was 110% built on "festival" events and the fact that (like Muslims today go to Mecca once in their lives), Jews tried to get to Jerusalem (rarely) but at least once, especially at Passover. Temple tourism was EVERYTHING. This cannot be OVER-estimated. Once there, they BOUGHT every thing for the ritual sacrifices, paid for ritual cleansing, paid the priests, paid for the sacrifices, and that had to be done in local currency, (NOT Roman coin), (an "abomination"). If the gospels story about the money changers is true, then causing ANY sort of ruckus in the temple threatened the economy of the entire city, (like locking oneself to the doors of the NY stock exchange). There was a standing order in the Pax Romana to swiftly and summarily execute trouble makers. There was no reason to examine the preaching content of a Jesus. If he existed, he got himself killed, as he was a simple trouble-maker, and the Roman occupation would not abide that.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
27-04-2017, 04:40 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 02:20 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  This is why I am trying to disprove Christianity as a whole, instead of topics (like hell) contained therein.

Why do you want to do that? It's a pointless and ultimately misplaced effort. Religion is ultimately not amenable to logical analysis. At least many profess to be all transcendent and whatnot. Many problems begin when religounuts proudly pronounce the reasonableness of their particular whackadoodle and then go looking for someone they can defend it against. I guess to test its mettle or something because deep down they know it's cookoo. They'll have to get up earlier in the morning if they want to bait me. Bastards.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like GirlyMan's post
27-04-2017, 04:41 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 07:48 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  So the question is, if Jesus did not exist, how did the stories start? For me, I think there was a 'man' called Yeshua and he was an apocalyptic prophet of the Jews who spoke against their beliefs. They didn't like it so they brought up charges against him and had him killed.
Big plot, no evidence he ever existed, in whatever form you are touting.

And none of the stories are tinged with any blush of reality, so why would it matter who created them?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Gawdzilla's post
27-04-2017, 05:41 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(27-04-2017 04:25 PM)JesseB Wrote:  For instance if you read on a blog about a census at the time of the birth of jesus, look on that site for that source.

Saying if a christian site has a proper citation. Laugh out load

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes The Organic Chemist's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: