If Jesus Never Existed...
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01-05-2017, 11:25 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2017 11:31 AM by Commonsensei.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
So most has already been stated here. But i'll say my part anyway.

If the question is "How could a humanly god just be made up?" or a statement like "We need a source to for a beginning of all this. People just wouldn't fallow as a fairy tail." You wouldn't have to far back into history to see how stories like this get started. We can see it happing even today.

I would direct your attention to places like North Korea. How has it's populous convince that Kim Ja Un is a god. Exsapes will make statements like "We are afraid to think bad thoughts because he can read our minds." Or "His body is running at the utmost profligacy, so he never pees or poops." Or "he controls the Weather with his emotions." We as outsiders can know that this isn't true. But to the people of North Korea it is a strongly heald belief. And with lake of outside information they are doomed to be convinced that it is true.

Other groups put a tremendous amount of faith into one person. As he has figured something out that they hadn't and it resinates with them. Jim Jones (Jones Town), Marshall Applewhite (Heavens Gate), L. Ron Hubber (Scieontology) among others { http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ough-cults } are very charismatic.

Right now their is a number of people claiming to be the reincarnation of Jesus. And the majority of the populous thinks they are nuts. But some believe.

AJ Miller
[Image: aj400_177iq3n-177iq6m.jpg]

Sergey Torop
[Image: vissarion.jpg]

Shoko Asahara
[Image: _39854848_ashara203_ap.jpg]

Sun Myung Moon
[Image: article-2197931-004BE4EF00000258-329_634x885.jpg]

These are just a few I could name of people claiming to be the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. And they even have a following (Or had). My point is if I lived in a time when information, history, and science where almost none exsistant. And I heard about one of these guys, and I saw the numbers starting to follow I might fall in line also.

But luckily for us we don't live in those times.

So my questions would be "Why don't you accept one of these men above as Jesus?" What requirements would one of them need to fulfill for you to accept them? Is it the amount of time their religions thrive? Is the amount of people that follow them?Does the tenacity of the belief dem it true? Do they need to do one of the parlor tricks Jesus did in the stories? If we had less information about there lives would that make their claims more true?

It's one thing to believe and another to know WHY you believe.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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01-05-2017, 11:29 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(01-05-2017 11:25 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  So my questions would be "Why don't you accept one of these men above as Jesus?" What requirements would one of them need to fulfill for you to accept them? Is it the amount of time their religions thrive? Is the amount of people that follow them?Does the tenacity of the belief dem it true? Do they need to do one of the parlor tricks Jesus did in the stories? If we had less information about there lives would that make their claims more true?

It's one thing to believe and another to know WHY you believe.

I vote this guy 'cause I like his attitude.

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There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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01-05-2017, 12:21 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(01-05-2017 10:59 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-05-2017 10:55 AM)Vera Wrote:  "Et si tu n'existais pas,
Je crois que je l'aurais trouvé,
Le secret de la vie, le pourquoi,
Simplement pour te créer
Et pour te regarder vénérer." Drinking Beverage




I love it when Vera dresses up in her sexy French maid outfit. Big Grin

QFT.

What were talking about? Huh

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01-05-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(01-05-2017 11:25 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  It's one thing to believe and another to know WHY you believe.

I like my religion like I like my politics. Self created. That way nobody slips an exception under my radar. Wink

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03-05-2017, 12:14 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
beLIEve

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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04-05-2017, 11:43 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
See my sig. Tongue

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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05-05-2017, 04:33 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(01-05-2017 10:42 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(01-05-2017 09:21 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  I think you're approaching this from the wrong way. I think you're worried that if you decide that you are NOT Christian, then you have to believe in SOMETHING, and that you need to figure out what box you are in. IMHO, you should definitely research into these topics, but it should primarily be about what you think is the most logical viewpoint to have. There is no hardcore atheist belief system that you have to subscribe to. There is no belief system at all.

Right now I consider myself a cultural Roman Catholic. I go to church most Sundays and I do some volunteering at the church. I believe very little of what the RCC teaches today - with the bible being very sketchy based on it's origins and contradictions. I guess you can say that I'm actually agnostic. It doesn't seem like there is a higher power actively governing our lives, and if there was it would most likely be the type of being who put the whole universe into motion and then stepped back to observe.
If I ever came to the conclusion that no gods exist, I'd very probably just keep on meditating and believe in a cold grave as my ultimate destiny.

I don't really want to be swapping one belief system for another

> Atheism isn't a belief system. It is the absence of god beliefs.
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05-05-2017, 04:55 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
I have to say to SeaJay that I don't think these guys have been entirely fair to you...or at least, they've been a bit harsher than I think was necessary, based on my reading of your threads. You've handled the criticisms with admirable aplomb!

You've all been covering the details of historicity and mythmaking quite well, so I'd like to help you by adding a new thought to your "fear of hell" thought pattern.

So what if it's all true, as you were programmed to think? Let's imagine for a moment that it's not an obvious psychological weapon, designed to trigger in order to shut your brain's reasoning process whenever you get too close to realizing the concept of God choosing to wait 200,000 years of humanity's history to finally send a "worldwide message" via a human-god hybrid in the ancient Near East at a time when most people were illiterate and scientifically ignorant, in such a way it would take another 1500 years to reach the hundreds of millions of people in Japan, Australia, and the Americas. Et cetera. Let's just assume the Christians are right and the Jews don't prohibit future-telling prophecies and/or know how to interpret their own scriptures. Leave all that aside and assume the whole Christian story is true... and that you juuuust happened to be lucky enough to be born into the one culture throughout human history and geography that juuuust happens to indoctrinate its children with The Right Religion instead of all those false ones found literally everywhere else you look. How lucky!

But let's just ignore all that and ask one question:

WHY WOULD YOU WORSHIP THAT MURDEROUS, MEGALOMANIACAL BASTARD?

Seriously. This "moral authority" being (which seems to have no issue with slavery...but I digress) tells you that if you do not ignore the inherent problems listed above and believe, you are to be tortured for all eternity. An infinite punishment for finite errors, even if the only error is finding the story unconvincing. This being is not one iota morally superior to an armed rapist or mugger, pointing a death penalty at you and demanding you choose to submit to its will "voluntarily". It demands that you offer it love and servitude at gunpoint. Think about that.

I have said repeatedly that I would rather be tortured by this barbaric psychopath's created torture chamber than to give in to this threat on a debt it supposedly claims I owe it, based just on being me.

Now add to that thought the likelihood that it's just a tool used by humans to frighten other humans into surrendering their rational thinking skills and going along with the herd (that they control). Which strikes you as more likely--- mythmaking or a real, genuine psychopath of a creator-being?

Either way, the answer is not "join that cult".

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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05-05-2017, 05:56 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(05-05-2017 04:55 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Either way, the answer is not "join that cult".

Laugh out load

"Join That Cult!" sounds like an idea for a game show.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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05-05-2017, 07:57 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 02:26 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  The whole 'Jesus mentioned in the Talmud' topic is a good example of why I ask these types of questions. I'm trying to avoid the situation wherein I say "Ok that's that, I'm an atheist", only to find out the very next day that there's so-called irrefutable evidence that Jesus actually existed/Christianity is true. Evidence that might not shake your non-beliefs, but may well shake mine.

Even *if* someone were to find some document or other irrefutable evidence that a human named "Jesus" referenced in the New Testament, actually existed, it would do nothing to demonstrate that "Christianity is true". The MANY *Christianities* evolved over hundreds of years, (see Ehrman's books) and there is a reason there are 35,000 sects of it today, each claiming *they* got it right. The HUGE ENTIRE set of under-pinning claims and false/debunked Hebrew misconceptions, and outright non-historical claims (the Exodus etc), that all of Christianity rests on, can NEVER be refuted by ANYTHING. History is history, and we know what we know. The ENTIRE set of non-historical crap placed in the mouth of Stephen (for example) in Acts is KNOWN historical bunk. It never happened the way it's recounted. NOTHING can refute known history. Not tomorrow. Not ever.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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