If Jesus Never Existed...
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05-05-2017, 09:34 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 05:25 AM by Chas.)
If Jesus Never Existed...
...things would be exactly as they are. Drinking Beverage

Because the Jesus of the Bible certainly never existed.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-05-2017, 12:18 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
I thought of another way to point out the silliness of the Hell concept. Ask yourself this question: "Who was the first human sent to Hell upon their death?"

We know humans have been around in modern form for at least 100,000-250,000 years, and that is just a ballpark because of course the lineage is gradual and there's really no point where you can call one generation "not human" but say their kids were, if you follow me. The line continues back through tens of thousands of generations, back to Homo habilis and the rest of the hominids, back through millions until we're just shrewlike primate mammals. We even interbred with the Neandertals and the Denisovans, who left Africa before we did. Did they have souls? Are there Neandertals in Hell?

Where, during the 100,000 year MINIMUM in which unquestionably modern humans were going about, living and breeding and dying, did God decide to send one (and all who came after) to Hell? Why would this same God choose a salvation system that ignored at least the first 98,000 years of modern humanity? And which, as I pointed out, would continue to ignore half of humanity for the 1500 years after that?

It simply makes no sense, at all, if you take your mind above our myopic cultural perspective. I like to think of history by first looking down on the region I'm considering from orbit over the planet, like I just opened the Google Earth program. Picture that first man supposedly sent to Hell...where would he be on that globe, seen from above? Why him and not his neighbors, or his ancestors?

And why is it a "him"?

When you really take your perspective to that level, it becomes pretty obvious that Hell can only exist as a concept inside a culture that is unaware of the true scope of human history, and the development of life on this planet.

Hope that helps.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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06-05-2017, 01:53 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(05-05-2017 04:55 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I have to say to SeaJay that I don't think these guys have been entirely fair to you...or at least, they've been a bit harsher than I think was necessary, based on my reading of your threads. You've handled the criticisms with admirable aplomb!
Thank you, RS. It's understandable some may doubt my motives

(05-05-2017 04:55 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You've all been covering the details of historicity and mythmaking quite well, so I'd like to help you by adding a new thought to your "fear of hell" thought pattern.

So what if it's all true, as you were programmed to think? Let's imagine for a moment that it's not an obvious psychological weapon, designed to trigger in order to shut your brain's reasoning process whenever you get too close to realizing the concept of God choosing to wait 200,000 years of humanity's history to finally send a "worldwide message" via a human-god hybrid in the ancient Near East at a time when most people were illiterate and scientifically ignorant, in such a way it would take another 1500 years to reach the hundreds of millions of people in Japan, Australia, and the Americas. Et cetera. Let's just assume the Christians are right and the Jews don't prohibit future-telling prophecies and/or know how to interpret their own scriptures. Leave all that aside and assume the whole Christian story is true... and that you juuuust happened to be lucky enough to be born into the one culture throughout human history and geography that juuuust happens to indoctrinate its children with The Right Religion instead of all those false ones found literally everywhere else you look. How lucky!

But let's just ignore all that and ask one question:

WHY WOULD YOU WORSHIP THAT MURDEROUS, MEGALOMANIACAL BASTARD?

Seriously. This "moral authority" being (which seems to have no issue with slavery...but I digress) tells you that if you do not ignore the inherent problems listed above and believe, you are to be tortured for all eternity. An infinite punishment for finite errors, even if the only error is finding the story unconvincing. This being is not one iota morally superior to an armed rapist or mugger, pointing a death penalty at you and demanding you choose to submit to its will "voluntarily". It demands that you offer it love and servitude at gunpoint. Think about that.

I have said repeatedly that I would rather be tortured by this barbaric psychopath's created torture chamber than to give in to this threat on a debt it supposedly claims I owe it, based just on being me.

Now add to that thought the likelihood that it's just a tool used by humans to frighten other humans into surrendering their rational thinking skills and going along with the herd (that they control). Which strikes you as more likely--- mythmaking or a real, genuine psychopath of a creator-being?

Either way, the answer is not "join that cult".
You make a strong argument RS, one which, on the surface proves almost impossible to refute.

But this forces me to think of the kinds of thought processes that keep me believing, and this, in turn, leads me to realise it is 99% out of fear that I remain in this flux. The 1% is that it still all might be true, but as you say and as your post is focused on "So what if it is all true?"

All this information, the brutality, the absurdities, the scientific angle, archaeological findings (or lack thereof), logic, reason, contradictions, morals, failed prophecies etc. It all points to a man made book.

But

But I still cling to it all, and I genuinely, honestly, truthfully, do not know why. It's like it is deep inside of me, like this belief is woven into the very fabric of my being. There is a very small part of me that won't - I'm going to say - can't let go.

And due to my fear, anxiety and feeling trapped, I want to let go. I don't want to believe, but I do. That belief of mine is shaky, it's fragile, it's almost gone, but it is there, and not only that, it has been with me this way for years. It never increases, and if it decreased the slightest, I would be agnostic at least.

But all that said, the reality is 'I truly do not know what it is I believe anymore.' That's frustrating! I look at it all and it is as if there is a fog on my mind so I cannot see anything clearly.

It feels as if God is keeping me keeping on believing, and sometimes I think He is doing this because of his love for me. I know, I know you can all pick holes in that all the live long day, but nevertheless, this is how it feels. It feels as if God won't allow me to leave, and when it feels like this, I start feeling guilty that I want to pull away from Him. It actually upsets me and makes me sad.

It's a right mind bender for sure

EDIT: I have just fully realised that this is new to me; this feeling of sadness and like I'm turning my back on God. So on the one hand, I feel terrified because God terrifies me, and on the other hand, I feel guilty, and genuinely sad about leaving God. So more cognitive dissonance!

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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06-05-2017, 02:00 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 12:18 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I thought of another way to point out the silliness of the Hell concept. Ask yourself this question: "Who was the first human sent to Hell upon their death?"

We know humans have been around in modern form for at least 100,000-250,000 years, and that is just a ballpark because of course the lineage is gradual and there's really no point where you can call one generation "not human" but say their kids were, if you follow me. The line continues back through tens of thousands of generations, back to Homo habilis and the rest of the hominids, back through millions until we're just shrewlike primate mammals. We even interbred with the Neandertals and the Denisovans, who left Africa before we did. Did they have souls? Are there Neandertals in Hell?

Where, during the 100,000 year MINIMUM in which unquestionably modern humans were going about, living and breeding and dying, did God decide to send one (and all who came after) to Hell? Why would this same God choose a salvation system that ignored at least the first 98,000 years of modern humanity? And which, as I pointed out, would continue to ignore half of humanity for the 1500 years after that?

It simply makes no sense, at all, if you take your mind above our myopic cultural perspective. I like to think of history by first looking down on the region I'm considering from orbit over the planet, like I just opened the Google Earth program. Picture that first man supposedly sent to Hell...where would he be on that globe, seen from above? Why him and not his neighbors, or his ancestors?

And why is it a "him"?

When you really take your perspective to that level, it becomes pretty obvious that Hell can only exist as a concept inside a culture that is unaware of the true scope of human history, and the development of life on this planet.

Hope that helps.

As I understand it, nobody is in hell right now. Not Cain, not Judas, nobody. It says we die, then, we are resurrected, and then we either go to eternal life or eternal damnation.

Birth --> Death --> Resurrection --> Judgement --> Eternal Abode

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's exactly how it goes.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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06-05-2017, 02:11 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 02:00 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  As I understand it, nobody is in hell right now. Not Cain, not Judas, nobody. It says we die, then, we are resurrected, and then we either go to eternal life or eternal damnation.

Birth --> Death --> Resurrection --> Judgement --> Eternal Abode

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's exactly how it goes.

You think that we stay dead for a long time and then get resurrected, then we either go to heaven or to hell?
Do you think something like "soul" exists? Something beyond the physical appearance of a human being?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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06-05-2017, 02:51 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 02:54 AM by SeaJay.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 02:11 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 02:00 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  As I understand it, nobody is in hell right now. Not Cain, not Judas, nobody. It says we die, then, we are resurrected, and then we either go to eternal life or eternal damnation.

Birth --> Death --> Resurrection --> Judgement --> Eternal Abode

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's exactly how it goes.

You think that we stay dead for a long time and then get resurrected, then we either go to heaven or to hell?
Do you think something like "soul" exists? Something beyond the physical appearance of a human being?

No, I don't believe in an immortal soul, and I believe the bible does not teach that either. Immortal means something that simply cannot die, ever. Also, if a soul was immortal, then the verses "the soul that sins shall die" and also, "can destroy both soul and body in hell" don't really make sense. I believe the idea of an immortal soul came from Plato. Besides, if an immortal soul means some form of sentience, why can I not remember anything before my birth?

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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06-05-2017, 03:46 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Do you believe consciousness survives (regular) death? If so, why do you believe that?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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06-05-2017, 03:58 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 02:51 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 02:11 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  You think that we stay dead for a long time and then get resurrected, then we either go to heaven or to hell?
Do you think something like "soul" exists? Something beyond the physical appearance of a human being?

No, I don't believe in an immortal soul, and I believe the bible does not teach that either. Immortal means something that simply cannot die, ever. Also, if a soul was immortal, then the verses "the soul that sins shall die" and also, "can destroy both soul and body in hell" don't really make sense. I believe the idea of an immortal soul came from Plato. Besides, if an immortal soul means some form of sentience, why can I not remember anything before my birth?

If you die then, and if there is nothing left of "you", and if god resurrects "something" after some time, then its not "you" that gets "resurrected" (which would be a wrong term then) , but a clone or an image, but certainly not you.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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06-05-2017, 04:30 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
If the soul is the seat of our essence and consciousness then head injuries and dementia should not possibly be able to cause personality changes and we know they do its an incontrovertible unquestionable and undeniable truth, the apologetic of non existence until the deities decision to resurrect is an attempt to get round these immutable facts.
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06-05-2017, 05:06 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 03:46 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Do you believe consciousness survives (regular) death? If so, why do you believe that?
No, I don't believe there is anything that survives our death

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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