If Jesus Never Existed...
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06-05-2017, 07:30 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 07:48 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I know some think Jesus did not exist, and some think he did exist but was merely human. This got me thinking if Jesus didn't exist, how did all the stories about him originate?

They couldn't have. No Mythicist has put forward a credible case. They're as incoherent and illogical as flat-earther's.

How did Paul change his faith? Paul persecuted the Christians before his conversion, and that's a fact that's hard to doubt given his regret shown for it in his letters.

Quote:So the question is, if Jesus did not exist, how did the stories start? For me, I think there was a 'man' called Yeshua and he was an apocalyptic prophet of the Jews who spoke against their beliefs. They didn't like it so they brought up charges against him and had him killed.

That's not what happened, but whatever.

The Jews didn't have Jesus killed. Jesus went into the Temple - the holiest place for the Jews - and became disruptive and violent. That he threatened the peace and was disruptive in the Jew's holiest of places would have meant the Romans would have searched for him, and then crucified him. And that's likely exactly what happened.

After Jesus died, some of his loved ones had visions of him. And that reinforced their belief that he had been risen from the dead, and kept the movement alive long enough for Paul to be converted and then for the church to spread and its theology to take the form that it did.

What Christians don't understand and refuse to accept is that Jesus just taught Judaism. It wasn't even a particularly radical form of it. He took issue with some things that the Scribes and Pharisees taught, but other street-preachers/teachers did as well. It wasn't that unusual. Jesus certainly believed the end of the age was coming in his lifetime.

Paul's theology is quite a departure from Judaism, and from what Jesus taught. In fact, we don't even know how much of Jesus's teachings Paul was familiar with. He did know about the Last Supper, and he displays knowledge of other events and teachings, however he barely uses the teachings of Jesus in his letters. For comparison, see the letter of James which takes its teachings almost entirely from the Sermon on the Mount. And if that letter wasn't written by an early Christian, then it could just about pass off as being a Jewish letter.

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06-05-2017, 07:49 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
We are in no way as illogical as flat earthers I wanna see all this mountain of evidence for Jesus existence, convince me, if I'm wrong I want to know it so I can comport to the truth.
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06-05-2017, 08:01 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 07:49 AM)adey67 Wrote:  We are in no way as illogical as flat earthers I wanna see all this mountain of evidence for Jesus existence, convince me, if I'm wrong I want to know it so I can comport to the truth.

That's what a flat earther would say, before claiming all the evidence is not acceptable.

We know quite a lot about Jesus, and Paul, and some of the disciples as it happens.

But the simplest answer I can give you is this: historians tell us he existed. It's the overwhelming view of New Testament Scholars, and any Classicist will also tell you he existed. And, of the half a dozen bonafide Mythicist scholars, none of them can even agree upon a hypothesis of how Christianity started, and most of them held their Mythicist beliefs before they became scholars.

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06-05-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Fuck off Aractus. Most of us are talking about this for the purpose of an entirely different subject, and it has already been discussed that it's irrelevance whether or not Jesus was real, since it's evident to anyone paying attention that the person has been heavily mythologized even if it was a real guy.


And Fuck off with "why did Paul change", too, since that's even less relevant...Unless you're claiming you find it credible that dead Jesus appeared to him in spirit on the Damascus road.

Take your thread hijack attempt and shove it far enough into your colon that you can taste it. So sick of your shit.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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06-05-2017, 09:02 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 09:40 AM by adey67.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 08:01 AM)Aractus Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 07:49 AM)adey67 Wrote:  We are in no way as illogical as flat earthers I wanna see all this mountain of evidence for Jesus existence, convince me, if I'm wrong I want to know it so I can comport to the truth.

That's what a flat earther would say, before claiming all the evidence is not acceptable.

We know quite a lot about Jesus, and Paul, and some of the disciples as it happens.

But the simplest answer I can give you is this: historians tell us he existed. It's the overwhelming view of New Testament Scholars, and any Classicist will also tell you he existed. And, of the half a dozen bonafide Mythicist scholars, none of them can even agree upon a hypothesis of how Christianity started, and most of them held their Mythicist beliefs before they became scholars.

I'm pretty sure your first comment is a fallacy of some description if you knew me better you would know that one of my better-qualities is a willingness to concede and acknowledge points when presented with good evidence But rocket is right we should not be hijacking this thread, my bad too.
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06-05-2017, 09:06 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 10:28 AM by kim.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 01:53 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  ---
But this forces me to think of the kinds of thought processes that keep me believing, and this, in turn, leads me to realise it is 99% out of fear that I remain in this flux. The 1% is that it still all might be true, but as you say and as your post is focused on "So what if it is all true?"
---.

But

But I still cling to it all, and I genuinely, honestly, truthfully, do not know why. It's like it is deep inside of me, like this belief is woven into the very fabric of my being. There is a very small part of me that won't - I'm going to say - can't let go.

There's no such thing as a sure thing. Don't take my word for it, ask anyone; ask a gambler or a casino owner or a matchmaker. Probably can't ask Pascal - for one thing, he's dead - but even he figured one needed to hedge one's bet. Wink

You see, I'm going to die today. I'm actually kind of surprised it hasn't happened already. Maybe later, I guess. Probably while I'm mowing the lawn. Fuck. Dodgy

This happens all the time - nearly everyday. There is 99% possibility I will die on any given day, and a 1% possibility that very same day, that I won't. There is also a 99% possibility I won't die that given day and 1% possibility I will. As one gets older, those percentages even out. It's all good. Shy

If I don't die today, then it's definitely going to happen tomorrow. There's also that monkey wrench of there always being a tomorrow.

Tomorrow! Now, there's a sure thing! Thumbsup
Until, I'm dead.
Until, the moon drifts too far away and our atmosphere is drastically altered.
Until, the planet is swallowed by the sun.
Until, the galaxy Andromeda collides with our galaxy ...

“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”
~ Fitzgerald

(06-05-2017 01:53 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  And due to my fear, anxiety and feeling trapped, I want to let go. I don't want to believe, but I do. That belief of mine is shaky, it's fragile, it's almost gone, but it is there, and not only that, it has been with me this way for years. It never increases, and if it decreased the slightest, I would be agnostic at least.

But all that said, the reality is 'I truly do not know what it is I believe anymore.' That's frustrating! I look at it all and it is as if there is a fog on my mind so I cannot see anything clearly.

It feels as if God is keeping me keeping on believing, and sometimes I think He is doing this because of his love for me. I know, I know you can all pick holes in that all the live long day, but nevertheless, this is how it feels. It feels as if God won't allow me to leave, and when it feels like this, I start feeling guilty that I want to pull away from Him. It actually upsets me and makes me sad.

It's a right mind bender for sure

EDIT: I have just fully realised that this is new to me; this feeling of sadness and like I'm turning my back on God. So on the one hand, I feel terrified because God terrifies me, and on the other hand, I feel guilty, and genuinely sad about leaving God. So more cognitive dissonance!


Grief.
Many here have experienced this sadness, this guilt. It is essentially one of the several stages of grief. It is very much like the sadness, the regret, the hopelessness which any child experiences during the demise of any parent or beloved.

You've given and given so much - maybe if you were to just give that much more .... You've tried so hard to not want this but it is still happening and it is terrifying ... that you might ... be going along with it ...

This is not easy. As you well know.


Grief is essential.
Hug

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06-05-2017, 09:14 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 05:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  ---
Do you fear bogeymen in the night?
--- Drinking Beverage

I ... I ... live a a alone ... in a big creeky house. Shocking




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06-05-2017, 09:19 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 06:12 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  ---
Krampus!

Shocking


Sadcryface2

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06-05-2017, 09:29 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 06:46 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 06:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Rid yourself of childish fears. Think like an adult, not an ignorant child.

It isn't as simple as just, growing up though.

It's about core beliefs fashioned since I was a child and those beliefs reinforced due to an insecure upbringing. It's about obsessive thoughts, PTSD, intrusive thoughts, severe anxiety and Borderline Personality Disorder. My point is when you put all that together, my brain sometimes cannot process information like it should do. Being told it is time to grow up might be what I need to do, but, it is an almost 'hand-waved' statement that sounds way too simplistic to my ears.

That's just your amygdala talking.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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06-05-2017, 09:36 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 07:30 AM)Aractus Wrote:  They couldn't have. No Mythicist has put forward a credible case. They're as incoherent and illogical as flat-earther's.
letter.

They have. You dismiss them as you don't like them. Many, with FAR more expertise than YOU have discussed them.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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