If Jesus Never Existed...
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06-05-2017, 09:37 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
If Santa never existed, why did I give him two of my favorite cookies & a glass of chocolate milk ?
I love those things. I sacrificed two cookies.
That has to count for something. Don't tell me it didn't.

If he never existed, we are talking about a lot of cookies over the years and gallons of chocolate milk.
Where did it all go ? Riddle me that ?

"Your parents ate them."

Are you trying to tell me that my whole life has been a lie ? Sorry, I can't accept that.

"But you can accept that a chubby man lands on your roof with flying reindeer and squeezes down your non-existent fireplace to place presents around a pine tree in your living room. And when he's done, he gobbles up the cookies & milk you left for him ?"

Seems perfectly reasonable.

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06-05-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 08:01 AM)Aractus Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 07:49 AM)adey67 Wrote:  We are in no way as illogical as flat earthers I wanna see all this mountain of evidence for Jesus existence, convince me, if I'm wrong I want to know it so I can comport to the truth.

That's what a flat earther would say, before claiming all the evidence is not acceptable.

We know quite a lot about Jesus, and Paul, and some of the disciples as it happens.

So you *claim*. References required.

Quote:But the simplest answer I can give you is this: historians tell us he existed. It's the overwhelming view of New Testament Scholars, and any Classicist will also tell you he existed.

Carrier is a Classicist. He doesn't. Let's see your list of scholars who are NOT people of faith, and who do NOT have conflicts of interest (employed by religious institutions).

Quote:And, of the half a dozen bonafide Mythicist scholars, none of them can even agree upon a hypothesis of how Christianity started, and most of them held their Mythicist beliefs before they became scholars.

Prove it. Carrier says he always assumed Jesus existed, before he examined the question. Who are you talking about, exactly ? Why can't mythicism be embraced before study IF you claim the OPPOSITE is true ?
More unsupported generalizations. The question of origins is not the same as the topic here.

You never bother to discuss the SPECIFICS of what's wrong with Carrier's veiws, exactly. Dismissal by general hand waving is hardly a convincing argument.

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06-05-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Being equated to a loony flat earther was very galling and unfair, like I said I'm happy to concede if there is compelling evidence. Even if he did exist he was only ever a loony itinerant preacher who got lucky, not a divine deity so its a moot point really.
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06-05-2017, 10:23 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 07:30 AM)Aractus Wrote:  They couldn't have. No Mythicist has put forward a credible case. They're as incoherent and illogical as flat-earther's.

How did Paul change his faith? Paul persecuted the Christians before his conversion, and that's a fact that's hard to doubt given his regret shown for it in his letters.

Your double standard with respect to evidence is hilarious. Incoherent hearsay when it contradicts your views, cold hard fact when it supports them. Your bias is so thick that it could stop bullets.

Kindly provide some evidence for your "fact" that isn't sourced in scripture or religion.

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06-05-2017, 10:41 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 10:44 AM by Aractus.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 08:49 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Fuck off Aractus. Most of us are talking about this for the purpose of an entirely different subject, and it has already been discussed that it's irrelevance whether or not Jesus was real, since it's evident to anyone paying attention that the person has been heavily mythologized even if it was a real guy.

I disagree. What do you mean by "heavily mythologised"?

Quote:And Fuck off with "why did Paul change", too, since that's even less relevant...Unless you're claiming you find it credible that dead Jesus appeared to him in spirit on the Damascus road.

I don't. And in fact I just sent Bart Ehrman an email on that very topic and he responded very promptly:

"I think 1 Cor. 15:8 is referring to his conversion experience; and in 1 Cor. 9:1 he claims that he has seen Jesus, so that, because of that, he is an apostle.  Gal 1-2 figure in as well.  All things combined make it appear that he had a vision.   I discuss all this in my book Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene.  But I have a full chapter on Paul’s conversion in my upcoming book due out in September, The Triumph of Christianity." (Bart Ehrman).

I am not convinced that Paul had a vision of Jesus. Because I don't understand WHY he would when he never met Jesus. The fact that Peter and other disciple had visions I think is quite well attested to, and explains a lot about how the resurrection myth evolved, as well as how the movement survived the death of their leader. But that said, he is correct at least that 1 Cor 9:1 is a pretty strong statement by Paul saying he saw Jesus, and I hadn't considered that verse so the case may in fact be stronger than I thought. But I would still like to know how he could have a vision of someone he never met before.

Quote:Take your thread hijack attempt and shove it far enough into your colon that you can taste it. So sick of your shit.

My posts are on-topic.

(06-05-2017 09:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So you *claim*. References required.

Ehrman stated he didn't know any serious scholars that doubted the existence of Jesus, and that there is hard evidence in this exchange, for one thing.

Quote:Carrier is a Classicist. He doesn't. Let's see your list of scholars who are NOT people of faith, and who do NOT have conflicts of interest (employed by religious institutions).

And there's not one single other scholar that agrees with Carrier's hypothesis. And why follow his hypothesis, why not Thomas Brodie's hypothesis? Why not Robert Price's? They all put forward completely different farcical hypotheses.

Quote:Prove it. Carrier says he always assumed Jesus existed, before he examined the question.

Brodie and Price always believed he didn't, before they became scholars.

Quote:You never bother to discuss the SPECIFICS of what's wrong with Carrier's veiws, exactly. Dismissal by general hand waving is hardly a convincing argument.

I don't need to because we have hard evidence. There are four gospels, 7 or so genuine letters of Paul, and the epistle of James. The epistle of James for example, never once quotes Jesus directly yet uses over 20 direct references to the Sermon on the Mount - a sermon that wasn't written until the Gospel of Matthew. Yet James knew about it 20-30 years before the gospel of Matthew was written - how is that possible with a mythical Jesus? More to the point, how come James ONLY knows about the SotM and appears to be ignorant of most other teachings of Jesus?

Why invent a messiah that's been crucified? That doesn't make any sense. And who in the right mind would be martyred for an invented messiah? All the evidence points towards most if not all of the early Christian leaders being martyred for their faith - true we don't know specifics, but we certainly know they all at the very least fall off the face of the earth with no other explanation, and that the second century church fathers believed them to have been martyred. Although, we do know that Paul persecuted Christians before his conversion, and we know that Stephen was the first martyr. Why would Simeon die for a someone that didn't exist? James, son of Zebedee is also martyred in Acts, and James the Just is martyred according to Josephus.

And Paul, I think it's safe to say that he was martyred since he writes (at least) two letters that are in the Bible while under house arrest, and then he's never heard from again. And it's very obvious from his letters that he was willing to face persecution for his beliefs - again, how do you explain that with no Jesus?

Shall I go on?

Let's go to the gospels - who came up with the Parable of the Good Samaritan if there was no Jesus? Who invented the Sermon on the Mount? Who invented all the other teachings that are attributed to Jesus? How do you explain the early creed in 1 Cor 15 which almost certainly can be traced back to within just a few months of the death of Jesus? Even Carrier admits as much: "In fact the evidence for this creed dating to the very origin of the religion is amply strong; and there is no reasonable basis for claiming otherwise."

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06-05-2017, 10:55 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Hmm ... well ... somebody really wants some shit to be for reals. Wink

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06-05-2017, 10:57 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Cause it's all about the wanting. Shy

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06-05-2017, 11:00 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 11:20 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 10:41 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Brodie and Price always believed he didn't, before they became scholars.

Irrelevant. You didn't answer the question.

Quote:I don't need to because we have hard evidence. There are four gospels, 7 or so genuine letters of Paul, and the epistle of James. The epistle of James for example, never once quotes Jesus directly yet uses over 20 direct references to the Sermon on the Mount - a sermon that wasn't written until the Gospel of Matthew. Yet James knew about it 20-30 years before the gospel of Matthew was written - how is that possible with a mythical Jesus? More to the point, how come James ONLY knows about the SotM and appears to be ignorant of most other teachings of Jesus?

Unfortunately for you, you do. What you consider "evidence" is hardly evidence, AND scholars agree it is not.
The gospels are the proclamations of faith, written for use in liturgies in religious communities, to remind themselves what they already believed.
They are evidence of nothing, except what communities believed.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...spels.html

Where's the LIST ?

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06-05-2017, 11:11 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 10:41 AM)Aractus Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 08:49 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Fuck off Aractus. Most of us are talking about this for the purpose of an entirely different subject, and it has already been discussed that it's irrelevance whether or not Jesus was real, since it's evident to anyone paying attention that the person has been heavily mythologized even if it was a real guy.

I disagree. What do you mean by "heavily mythologised"?

Quote:And Fuck off with "why did Paul change", too, since that's even less relevant...Unless you're claiming you find it credible that dead Jesus appeared to him in spirit on the Damascus road.

I don't. And in fact I just sent Bart Ehrman an email on that very topic and he responded very promptly:

"I think 1 Cor. 15:8 is referring to his conversion experience; and in 1 Cor. 9:1 he claims that he has seen Jesus, so that, because of that, he is an apostle.  Gal 1-2 figure in as well.  All things combined make it appear that he had a vision.   I discuss all this in my book Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene.  But I have a full chapter on Paul’s conversion in my upcoming book due out in September, The Triumph of Christianity." (Bart Ehrman).

I am not convinced that Paul had a vision of Jesus. Because I don't understand WHY he would when he never met Jesus. The fact that Peter and other disciple had visions I think is quite well attested to, and explains a lot about how the resurrection myth evolved, as well as how the movement survived the death of their leader. But that said, he is correct at least that 1 Cor 9:1 is a pretty strong statement by Paul saying he saw Jesus, and I hadn't considered that verse so the case may in fact be stronger than I thought. But I would still like to know how he could have a vision of someone he never met before.

Quote:Take your thread hijack attempt and shove it far enough into your colon that you can taste it. So sick of your shit.

My posts are on-topic.

(06-05-2017 09:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So you *claim*. References required.

Ehrman stated he didn't know any serious scholars that doubted the existence of Jesus, and that there is hard evidence in this exchange, for one thing.

Quote:Carrier is a Classicist. He doesn't. Let's see your list of scholars who are NOT people of faith, and who do NOT have conflicts of interest (employed by religious institutions).

And there's not one single other scholar that agrees with Carrier's hypothesis. And why follow his hypothesis, why not Thomas Brodie's hypothesis? Why not Robert Price's? They all put forward completely different farcical hypotheses.

Quote:Prove it. Carrier says he always assumed Jesus existed, before he examined the question.

Brodie and Price always believed he didn't, before they became scholars.

Quote:You never bother to discuss the SPECIFICS of what's wrong with Carrier's veiws, exactly. Dismissal by general hand waving is hardly a convincing argument.

I don't need to because we have hard evidence. There are four gospels, 7 or so genuine letters of Paul, and the epistle of James. The epistle of James for example, never once quotes Jesus directly yet uses over 20 direct references to the Sermon on the Mount - a sermon that wasn't written until the Gospel of Matthew. Yet James knew about it 20-30 years before the gospel of Matthew was written - how is that possible with a mythical Jesus? More to the point, how come James ONLY knows about the SotM and appears to be ignorant of most other teachings of Jesus?

Why invent a messiah that's been crucified? That doesn't make any sense. And who in the right mind would be martyred for an invented messiah? All the evidence points towards most if not all of the early Christian leaders being martyred for their faith - true we don't know specifics, but we certainly know they all at the very least fall off the face of the earth with no other explanation, and that the second century church fathers believed them to have been martyred. Although, we do know that Paul persecuted Christians before his conversion, and we know that Stephen was the first martyr. Why would Simeon die for a someone that didn't exist? James, son of Zebedee is also martyred in Acts, and James the Just is martyred according to Josephus.

And Paul, I think it's safe to say that he was martyred since he writes (at least) two letters that are in the Bible while under house arrest, and then he's never heard from again. And it's very obvious from his letters that he was willing to face persecution for his beliefs - again, how do you explain that with no Jesus?

Shall I go on?

Let's go to the gospels - who came up with the Parable of the Good Samaritan if there was no Jesus? Who invented the Sermon on the Mount? Who invented all the other teachings that are attributed to Jesus? How do you explain the early creed in 1 Cor 15 which almost certainly can be traced back to within just a few months of the death of Jesus? Even Carrier admits as much: "In fact the evidence for this creed dating to the very origin of the religion is amply strong; and there is no reasonable basis for claiming otherwise."
Seriously? You quote Paul? Paul who's only contact with Jesus was a fucking hallucination on a dirt track ? Since when did hallucinations became evidence based truth ? Paul was nothing more than a misogynistic gynaphobe and possibly a self loathing homosexual who promoted death for people of possibly his own sexuality.
The other stuff I will look into as it could well have significant merit... See, hardly the actions of a flat earther, please try to be a little more circumspect in your discourse with fellow non believers.
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06-05-2017, 11:24 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
While I agree that the synoptic gospels are not strictly biographical, I think that to a large extent they are but are embellished and edited. In Matthew 9-9, Jesus meets a man called Matthew who he asks to follow him. My take on this is that this is intended to indicate that this is the author of the Gospel because the man is not mentioned anywhere else, says nothing and does nothing but "follows" Jesus, allowing readers to conclude that there was a "Matthew" who had first hand experience of Jesus' life.

I think it would be very hard to write a story about someone, citing all sorts of purported historical events and meetings with well known people, in a society which was largely illiterate and where information was conveyed orally, to invent wholesale a person and the events without there being a lot of people who had been around at the time, or whose parents or grandparents were around at the time and could have said it was all complete fiction. I mean, my granny was around during WWI and she told me lots of stories about life back then and she didn't talk about fictional characters in books she never read or had access to as being real people.

I can understand how one could embellish a person's life or distort it and give him seemingly magical powers, but I can't see how one could invent a person out of nothing, then try to sell it to a society which didn't actually have access to your book and couldn't read it. The Assyrian Christians adopted Christianity and decamped from southern Anatolia to India within a span of time which makes it highly unlikely that they did so because they had read a fictional work in a foreign language about a person who never existed.
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