If Jesus Never Existed...
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06-05-2017, 12:38 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 12:21 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 11:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  LOL.
More assertions. No references. YOU can't even prove that PAUL existed.
You really drank the Kool Aide.

Oh Geez, is this really the level of deep critical thought I'm dealing with? Here's the Ehrman-Price debate:





At 1:44: "It's not a question that's debated among scholars. Most scholars don't even think it's worth debating because of the overwhelming evidence". - Ehrman

At 1:49: "I don't think it's a valuable conversation, and I don't think it's contributing anything". - Ehrman

Time for you to post evidence.

Have you seen Carrier's rebuttal to the above video?

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11435

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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06-05-2017, 12:44 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Sure have!

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06-05-2017, 01:27 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 01:53 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  But I still cling to it all, and I genuinely, honestly, truthfully, do not know why. It's like it is deep inside of me, like this belief is woven into the very fabric of my being. There is a very small part of me that won't - I'm going to say - can't let go.
We all carry within us the experiences that formed us. I will never be well and truly rid of a lot of things that have passed through my field of awareness. The schools I attended, the playmates and friends, the women I loved, the times I have been wronged, or surprised by good turns done to me, the zillions facets of my professional life, every jot and tittle of it cannot, at some level, be denied, as if it never was.

I was, for just over 30 years, an evangelical fundamentalist Christian, starting at a little under three months shy of age six. I can't pretend that isn't a part of me, that it does not right at this very moment inform my thought patterns in some way, no matter how much I have debunked / turned from / disavowed / outgrown it.

Catholics seem to have a particular command of this with their aphorism, "once a Catholic, always a Catholic". They rightly recognize that you can't inculcate something in a child and have it totally absent in the adult that child becomes. That is also what's behind the Biblical aphorism, "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it." That tends to be true, and even when it's not literally true, threads of influences remain.

But this isn't all bad. SeaJay. I will always carry within me, my beloved late wife and my lovely son, and this is undiminished by the fact of my remarriage or that this relationship has given me a "spare son" in my much-treasured stepson, who as I write this, is reveling in pizza leftovers as he watches something on TV, basking in his just-completed straight-A semester at university. I am comforted by my current wife and stepson, but would not want to be free of or dishonor the memory of my late wife or late biological son, or even really to be entirely free of the pain of their absence.

Whether I progress through life with the memory of these and other departed loved ones and ideas and phases, and carry them like nasty splinters that make me sad and bitter, or like fond memories that make me smile, is pretty much up to me. In my case it is largely a matter of being willing to let go of a personal tendency, reinforced by my faith of origin, to rigid thinking, to considering anything that doesn't follow the expected / desired story arc is a broken dead end and must somehow be fixed if there is to be any hope of happiness on that front ever again. That what "should have" or "could have" been, if it in fact ends up NOT being, must rob me forever of the ability to experience any sort of satisfaction.

It's the same with the faith you are clearly letting go of. It is just more change -- the only "constant" in life IS change. All things, good and bad, have a tendency to end and be replaced by other things. It is a natural, organic process, not always comfortable, comforting, or welcome, but it is what all flesh is heir to just the same.

So embrace it, accept that while there will be things you'll miss, and times you will second-guess your decisions, there will also be things you won't miss and times you will be grateful and sure that it is for the best. Choose to focus on the benefits, to be reassured by your continued evolution and growth, to understand that while you'll subjectively feel diminished at times, the reality is that thought habits, beliefs and relationships that have not worked for you SHOULD be shed and that you will GAIN from moving on from them. "When I was a child, I spoke and thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things". That is one of the few nuggets of wisdom from the Bible I still hold fast to. How I apply it is ironic from a Christian perspective, perhaps, but it is very, very true. You are putting away the things of childhood, a little later than most, but better late than never.

It's a good thing.

Meanwhile you have some losses and you can and should grieve them, even admit that you long for them. Heck, a quarter century after I left the faith, there are times I still feel a little twinge of envy at the comfortable certitude and false sense of belonging that are no longer available to me. But it is just like a nine year old missing thumb-sucking. You'll move on. Because you can and must and should.
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06-05-2017, 01:31 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 02:00 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  As I understand it, nobody is in hell right now. Not Cain, not Judas, nobody. It says we die, then, we are resurrected, and then we either go to eternal life or eternal damnation.

Birth --> Death --> Resurrection --> Judgement --> Eternal Abode

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's exactly how it goes.
That is how some people assert without evidence that it goes. Do you have an actual basis to think this to be true?
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06-05-2017, 01:37 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 02:51 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Immortal means something that simply cannot die, ever. Also, if a soul was immortal, then the verses "the soul that sins shall die" and also, "can destroy both soul and body in hell" don't really make sense.
Most of that depends on how literally or figuratively you decide to take, in those contexts, the meaning of death, soul, destroy and hell.

The truth is that no one has the slightest empirical idea what actually happens to people past the point of death. No one has ever come back from death to describe it. So one must base one's beliefs about what is likely to be true about the experience of death on what they DO know about the actual nature and basis of consciousness and such like. For most of your life you have gone with other's evidence-free assertions about afterlives, death, the theological constructs known as "soul" and "spirit", and how it all fits together. You have gone with the faux "discipline" of theology itself.

Because no one has the slightest idea about the invisible, immaterial, supernatural beings and realms, attempting to "make sense" of it is a fool's errand. You are in the process of figuring this out. But to really get past it you have to let go of, not just other people's ideas, or even your own ideas, but of the notion that any sort of valid understanding or knowledge is obtainable via these avenues AT ALL.
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06-05-2017, 01:45 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 06:41 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 06:17 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I'm trying to get your take on my assertion that your resurrection beliefs are a direct attempt to get round the fact that human souls are demonstrably false.

I just do not believe in a soul thing at all. I never have and far as I can tell I am perfectly content with that. So I would have to say the resurrection has no bearing whatsoever on souls.
I feel constrained to point out that this is just your particular theology (Mormon, if I'm not mistaken, or derived therefrom). If you were steeped in conventional evangelical Christianity, you would be as obsessed with an immediate post-death noncorporeal afterlife and how you would experience it (bliss vs hell) as you are now indifferent to it. Considering your anxiety / doubt / fear / fretfulness levels about all this other stuff, and your ability to be completely unconcerned about this one thing, it should be clear to you that the things that trouble you have no more inherent substance or reality than the things that don't trouble you.
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06-05-2017, 01:48 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 09:14 AM)kim Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 05:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  ---
Do you fear bogeymen in the night?
--- Drinking Beverage

I ... I ... live a a alone ... in a big creeky house. Shocking




Weeping
Thank dog, that it's not creaky. If it's merely creeky, you can simply fix the plumbing and dry up the creek ;-)
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06-05-2017, 01:56 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 02:01 PM by SeaJay.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 01:27 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 01:53 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  But I still cling to it all, and I genuinely, honestly, truthfully, do not know why. It's like it is deep inside of me, like this belief is woven into the very fabric of my being. There is a very small part of me that won't - I'm going to say - can't let go.
We all carry within us the experiences that formed us. I will never be well and truly rid of a lot of things that have passed through my field of awareness. The schools I attended, the playmates and friends, the women I loved, the times I have been wronged, or surprised by good turns done to me, the zillions facets of my professional life, every jot and tittle of it cannot, at some level, be denied, as if it never was.

I was, for just over 30 years, an evangelical fundamentalist Christian, starting at a little under three months shy of age six. I can't pretend that isn't a part of me, that it does not right at this very moment inform my thought patterns in some way, no matter how much I have debunked / turned from / disavowed / outgrown it.

Catholics seem to have a particular command of this with their aphorism, "once a Catholic, always a Catholic". They rightly recognize that you can't inculcate something in a child and have it totally absent in the adult that child becomes. That is also what's behind the Biblical aphorism, "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it." That tends to be true, and even when it's not literally true, threads of influences remain.

But this isn't all bad. SeaJay. I will always carry within me, my beloved late wife and my lovely son, and this is undiminished by the fact of my remarriage or that this relationship has given me a "spare son" in my much-treasured stepson, who as I write this, is reveling in pizza leftovers as he watches something on TV, basking in his just-completed straight-A semester at university. I am comforted by my current wife and stepson, but would not want to be free of or dishonor the memory of my late wife or late biological son, or even really to be entirely free of the pain of their absence.

Whether I progress through life with the memory of these and other departed loved ones and ideas and phases, and carry them like nasty splinters that make me sad and bitter, or like fond memories that make me smile, is pretty much up to me. In my case it is largely a matter of being willing to let go of a personal tendency, reinforced by my faith of origin, to rigid thinking, to considering anything that doesn't follow the expected / desired story arc is a broken dead end and must somehow be fixed if there is to be any hope of happiness on that front ever again. That what "should have" or "could have" been, if it in fact ends up NOT being, must rob me forever of the ability to experience any sort of satisfaction.

It's the same with the faith you are clearly letting go of. It is just more change -- the only "constant" in life IS change. All things, good and bad, have a tendency to end and be replaced by other things. It is a natural, organic process, not always comfortable, comforting, or welcome, but it is what all flesh is heir to just the same.

So embrace it, accept that while there will be things you'll miss, and times you will second-guess your decisions, there will also be things you won't miss and times you will be grateful and sure that it is for the best. Choose to focus on the benefits, to be reassured by your continued evolution and growth, to understand that while you'll subjectively feel diminished at times, the reality is that thought habits, beliefs and relationships that have not worked for you SHOULD be shed and that you will GAIN from moving on from them. "When I was a child, I spoke and thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things". That is one of the few nuggets of wisdom from the Bible I still hold fast to. How I apply it is ironic from a Christian perspective, perhaps, but it is very, very true. You are putting away the things of childhood, a little later than most, but better late than never.

It's a good thing.

Meanwhile you have some losses and you can and should grieve them, even admit that you long for them. Heck, a quarter century after I left the faith, there are times I still feel a little twinge of envy at the comfortable certitude and false sense of belonging that are no longer available to me. But it is just like a nine year old missing thumb-sucking. You'll move on. Because you can and must and should.
Thank you for this thought provoking post mordant Heart

Not sure if there's a process, but so far I've experienced fear, and now loss. There is a genuine feeling of sadness, like I am losing a near and dear friend. Yes there have been terrible times for me in Christianity, but it's also been enriching and has given me comfort a lot of the times as well.

Yes, thinking about it, this kind of sucks right now.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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06-05-2017, 01:58 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 01:31 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 02:00 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  As I understand it, nobody is in hell right now. Not Cain, not Judas, nobody. It says we die, then, we are resurrected, and then we either go to eternal life or eternal damnation.

Birth --> Death --> Resurrection --> Judgement --> Eternal Abode

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's exactly how it goes.
That is how some people assert without evidence that it goes. Do you have an actual basis to think this to be true?
Outside of the bible I have nothing to confirm the last three are real. But that's what the bible teaches, I'm all but convinced of it.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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06-05-2017, 02:00 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 02:09 PM by mordant.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 10:41 AM)Aractus Wrote:  The epistle of James for example, never once quotes Jesus directly yet uses over 20 direct references to the Sermon on the Mount - a sermon that wasn't written until the Gospel of Matthew. Yet James knew about it 20-30 years before the gospel of Matthew was written - how is that possible with a mythical Jesus?
You apparently haven't considered the very real possibility -- nay, probability -- that he is referencing concepts already in circulation at the time of Christ and that were the basis of the SOTM as well as what was written in James.
(06-05-2017 10:41 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Why invent a messiah that's been crucified? That doesn't make any sense.
Very little about religion "makes sense" so why NOT?

Besides, making a martyr out of someone is a good way to romanticize a story and make it more appealing. Look at all the times in human history when killing some proponent or other of an ideology has backfired by turning the person into a martyr, to the chagrin of that ideology's opponents.

Then of course there's the possibility that the mythos is being based on a historical figure, or composite figure, who really WAS a martyr.
(06-05-2017 10:41 AM)Aractus Wrote:  And who in the right mind would be martyred for an invented messiah?
Have a little less contempt for the intelligence of the people you are talking to.

Every day, people give up their lives for all sorts of claptrap that they conceptualize as a greater good or higher ideal. How many soldiers risk their lives for no higher purpose than to have their fellow soldier's backs? I would take a bullet for my wife or stepson, and while they are special (just like everyone else!) they are hardly god figures or culture heroes, much less actual deities.

Humans die for all sorts of lesser, and often totally bullshit ideas every day. This Argument from Martyrdom is completely unconvincing. Laying down your life for others has entirely satisfying and prosaic psychological explanations. Look them up.
(06-05-2017 10:41 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Shall I go on?
Please don't.
(06-05-2017 10:41 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Let's go to the gospels - who came up with the Parable of the Good Samaritan if there was no Jesus? Who invented the Sermon on the Mount? Who invented all the other teachings that are attributed to Jesus? How do you explain the early creed in 1 Cor 15 which almost certainly can be traced back to within just a few months of the death of Jesus? Even Carrier admits as much: "In fact the evidence for this creed dating to the very origin of the religion is amply strong; and there is no reasonable basis for claiming otherwise."
I don't know. Maybe some guy named Fred came up with them. Or embellished them to suit himself. You are simply making an argument from popular attribution, and then an argument from proximity. Is that all you got?
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