If Jesus Never Existed...
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06-05-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 01:45 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 06:41 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I just do not believe in a soul thing at all. I never have and far as I can tell I am perfectly content with that. So I would have to say the resurrection has no bearing whatsoever on souls.
I feel constrained to point out that this is just your particular theology (Mormon, if I'm not mistaken, or derived therefrom). If you were steeped in conventional evangelical Christianity, you would be as obsessed with an immediate post-death noncorporeal afterlife and how you would experience it (bliss vs hell) as you are now indifferent to it. Considering your anxiety / doubt / fear / fretfulness levels about all this other stuff, and your ability to be completely unconcerned about this one thing, it should be clear to you that the things that trouble you have no more inherent substance or reality than the things that don't trouble you.
It's from my Christadelphian teachings and the bible, where it says 'it is appointed man to die once, and then the resurrection.' Still, I've no dog in this fight, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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06-05-2017, 02:02 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 02:07 PM by JesseB.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 01:58 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 01:31 PM)mordant Wrote:  That is how some people assert without evidence that it goes. Do you have an actual basis to think this to be true?
Outside of the bible I have nothing to confirm the last three are real. But that's what the bible teaches, I'm all but convinced of it.

Lord Voldemort killed Harry Potters parents with an unforgivable curse. It's in the Harry Potter series, therefore it must be true.

You do realize this is how you sound to everyone saying such an utterly stupid thing right?


(Edit): Even better. Harry Potter died so that everyone might be saved from Lord Voldemorts curse. It's true, it's in book 7 of the Harry Potter series. Harry potter died and rose from the dead even. All to save all of us from Lord Voldemort. Harry Potter is litterally a dying and rising savior god, just like ALL of the hundreds of other ones (including jesus). They are all stories dude.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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06-05-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 11:28 AM)Aractus Wrote:  The fact that the gospel writers and for that matter Paul characterise Jesus in different ways is not an indication that they're not talking about a historical person.
Paul's Jesus ... this celestial being ... is not a mere difference in characterization from the flesh-and-blood god-man of the gospels. It is a clear evolution of a mythos, or possibly a competing mythos. Personally I think Paul embraced a version of what we now regard as the "gnostic heresy". Or was, perhaps, even the (unwitting?) originator of it.

It's one thing for two biographers to cherry pick different attributes of their subject to discuss / emphasize, to show different facets. It's another thing for one to claim as its source, a vision from god about a supernatural character, and the other, to be relating actual events about an actual person.
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06-05-2017, 02:09 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
SeaJay.... perhaps you should study Bob.

Unlike God, Bob offers a tangible guarantee. Bob is clearly more real than God. Much truth can be found in satire dude. Maybe that will help you open your eyes.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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06-05-2017, 02:21 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 01:56 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 01:27 PM)mordant Wrote:  We all carry within us the experiences that formed us. I will never be well and truly rid of a lot of things that have passed through my field of awareness. The schools I attended, the playmates and friends, the women I loved, the times I have been wronged, or surprised by good turns done to me, the zillions facets of my professional life, every jot and tittle of it cannot, at some level, be denied, as if it never was.

I was, for just over 30 years, an evangelical fundamentalist Christian, starting at a little under three months shy of age six. I can't pretend that isn't a part of me, that it does not right at this very moment inform my thought patterns in some way, no matter how much I have debunked / turned from / disavowed / outgrown it.

Catholics seem to have a particular command of this with their aphorism, "once a Catholic, always a Catholic". They rightly recognize that you can't inculcate something in a child and have it totally absent in the adult that child becomes. That is also what's behind the Biblical aphorism, "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it." That tends to be true, and even when it's not literally true, threads of influences remain.

But this isn't all bad. SeaJay. I will always carry within me, my beloved late wife and my lovely son, and this is undiminished by the fact of my remarriage or that this relationship has given me a "spare son" in my much-treasured stepson, who as I write this, is reveling in pizza leftovers as he watches something on TV, basking in his just-completed straight-A semester at university. I am comforted by my current wife and stepson, but would not want to be free of or dishonor the memory of my late wife or late biological son, or even really to be entirely free of the pain of their absence.

Whether I progress through life with the memory of these and other departed loved ones and ideas and phases, and carry them like nasty splinters that make me sad and bitter, or like fond memories that make me smile, is pretty much up to me. In my case it is largely a matter of being willing to let go of a personal tendency, reinforced by my faith of origin, to rigid thinking, to considering anything that doesn't follow the expected / desired story arc is a broken dead end and must somehow be fixed if there is to be any hope of happiness on that front ever again. That what "should have" or "could have" been, if it in fact ends up NOT being, must rob me forever of the ability to experience any sort of satisfaction.

It's the same with the faith you are clearly letting go of. It is just more change -- the only "constant" in life IS change. All things, good and bad, have a tendency to end and be replaced by other things. It is a natural, organic process, not always comfortable, comforting, or welcome, but it is what all flesh is heir to just the same.

So embrace it, accept that while there will be things you'll miss, and times you will second-guess your decisions, there will also be things you won't miss and times you will be grateful and sure that it is for the best. Choose to focus on the benefits, to be reassured by your continued evolution and growth, to understand that while you'll subjectively feel diminished at times, the reality is that thought habits, beliefs and relationships that have not worked for you SHOULD be shed and that you will GAIN from moving on from them. "When I was a child, I spoke and thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things". That is one of the few nuggets of wisdom from the Bible I still hold fast to. How I apply it is ironic from a Christian perspective, perhaps, but it is very, very true. You are putting away the things of childhood, a little later than most, but better late than never.

It's a good thing.

Meanwhile you have some losses and you can and should grieve them, even admit that you long for them. Heck, a quarter century after I left the faith, there are times I still feel a little twinge of envy at the comfortable certitude and false sense of belonging that are no longer available to me. But it is just like a nine year old missing thumb-sucking. You'll move on. Because you can and must and should.
Thank you for this thought provoking post mordant Heart

Not sure if there's a process, but so far I've experienced fear, and now loss. There is a genuine feeling of sadness, like I am losing a near and dear friend. Yes there have been terrible times for me in Christianity, but it's also been enriching and has given me comfort a lot of the times as well.

Yes, thinking about it, this kind of sucks right now.

Turning away from religion would of course give you a sense of loss and sadness. Even if it's all in your head.

Again I am going to turn to literature (since the bible is just literature too), this time we're going to look at Don Quixote.

(One brainwashed by Don)
"My judgement is now clear and unfettered, and that dark cloud of ignorance has disappeared, which the continual reading of those detestable books of knight-errantry had cast over my understanding" (Don Quixote Book 2, Part 16).

(There's actually much better examples from t his book I think, but I couldn't find the quote I really wanted) Lets fight fables with fables hehe

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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06-05-2017, 02:22 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 02:26 PM by SeaJay.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 02:02 PM)JesseB Wrote:  You do realize this is how you sound to everyone saying such an utterly stupid thing right?
I am saying that I am convinced that is what is in the bible concerning the topic of resurrection after death. This is not the same as me saying 'I also believe what the bible teaches concerning the topic of resurrection after death.' The latter does not necessarily follow on from the former.

I believe The Lord of the Rings novel teaches us that Saruman is a bad guy, but I don't actually believe Saruman is a real person.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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06-05-2017, 02:24 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 02:22 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 02:02 PM)JesseB Wrote:  You do realize this is how you sound to everyone saying such an utterly stupid thing right?
I am saying that I am convinced that is what is in the bible concerning the topic given. This is not the same as saying 'I also believe what the bible teaches concerning the topic given.'

I'm glad to hear that, I was growing concerned for you.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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06-05-2017, 02:31 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 02:00 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  It's from my Christadelphian teachings and the bible, where it says 'it is appointed man to die once, and then the resurrection.' Still, I've no dog in this fight, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
Ok I just got an education, I was completely unaware of Christadelphianism until this very moment. Despite having experienced about 1000% more study of comparative religion than most random individuals, this one just never came up on my radar. Which speaks to the sheer volume of variants on Christianity.

So your belief-system is unitarian, and teaches soul-sleep, and "eternal insecurity". This explains a lot of your concerns (and as I said, lack of concerns) about various things.

I don't know where I got the idea you had a Mormon background ... probably confused you with someone else. Thanks for the clarification.
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06-05-2017, 02:35 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Whelp, on that note I would generally agree with you, I don't think the bible is entirely clear on this topic (there are places that contradict this). However MOST of what is said will happen when you die as I recall is that you lay "sleeping" in your grave (no real mention of sea burials or cremations, given how religions usually work it would be assumed that in those days that particular doctrine may have thought that cremated bodies might destroy the soul, much like cameras can steal the soul in some other religions). Then at the end you rise from the grave and fly up to haven for judgement. In a court room where god sits up there, jesus is potentially your defense attorney (unless of course he's throwing a hissy fit that you don't love him enough) and Satan is the prosecutor.... you know cause evil traitors always work for the guy they are trying to overthrow.... Try not to think about it too much, that's what christians do.

Of course the bible also mentions specific numbers of how many people will be saved.... Just pointing that out.... Too bad ancient iron age peasants had no concept of 7 billion humans...lol

But again, its not really that clear, even in the most literal interpretations. There's verses that would contradict the one's commonly accepted as canon. There's even a book that was thrown out in the 1700's if I recall because it was so perverse and brutal that pastors didn't like reading from it lol. Isn't it a part of the bible too though? Doesn't the bible say that any who would add or subtract from the bible would be cursed? So... you're telling me all christians alive today are going to hell because none of them read the complete bible? heheh

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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06-05-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 01:27 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 01:53 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  But I still cling to it all, and I genuinely, honestly, truthfully, do not know why. It's like it is deep inside of me, like this belief is woven into the very fabric of my being. There is a very small part of me that won't - I'm going to say - can't let go.
We all carry within us the experiences that formed us. I will never be well and truly rid of a lot of things that have passed through my field of awareness. The schools I attended, the playmates and friends, the women I loved, the times I have been wronged, or surprised by good turns done to me, the zillions facets of my professional life, every jot and tittle of it cannot, at some level, be denied, as if it never was.

I was, for just over 30 years, an evangelical fundamentalist Christian, starting at a little under three months shy of age six. I can't pretend that isn't a part of me, that it does not right at this very moment inform my thought patterns in some way, no matter how much I have debunked / turned from / disavowed / outgrown it.

Catholics seem to have a particular command of this with their aphorism, "once a Catholic, always a Catholic". They rightly recognize that you can't inculcate something in a child and have it totally absent in the adult that child becomes. That is also what's behind the Biblical aphorism, "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it." That tends to be true, and even when it's not literally true, threads of influences remain.

But this isn't all bad. SeaJay. I will always carry within me, my beloved late wife and my lovely son, and this is undiminished by the fact of my remarriage or that this relationship has given me a "spare son" in my much-treasured stepson, who as I write this, is reveling in pizza leftovers as he watches something on TV, basking in his just-completed straight-A semester at university. I am comforted by my current wife and stepson, but would not want to be free of or dishonor the memory of my late wife or late biological son, or even really to be entirely free of the pain of their absence.

Whether I progress through life with the memory of these and other departed loved ones and ideas and phases, and carry them like nasty splinters that make me sad and bitter, or like fond memories that make me smile, is pretty much up to me. In my case it is largely a matter of being willing to let go of a personal tendency, reinforced by my faith of origin, to rigid thinking, to considering anything that doesn't follow the expected / desired story arc is a broken dead end and must somehow be fixed if there is to be any hope of happiness on that front ever again. That what "should have" or "could have" been, if it in fact ends up NOT being, must rob me forever of the ability to experience any sort of satisfaction.

It's the same with the faith you are clearly letting go of. It is just more change -- the only "constant" in life IS change. All things, good and bad, have a tendency to end and be replaced by other things. It is a natural, organic process, not always comfortable, comforting, or welcome, but it is what all flesh is heir to just the same.

So embrace it, accept that while there will be things you'll miss, and times you will second-guess your decisions, there will also be things you won't miss and times you will be grateful and sure that it is for the best. Choose to focus on the benefits, to be reassured by your continued evolution and growth, to understand that while you'll subjectively feel diminished at times, the reality is that thought habits, beliefs and relationships that have not worked for you SHOULD be shed and that you will GAIN from moving on from them. "When I was a child, I spoke and thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things". That is one of the few nuggets of wisdom from the Bible I still hold fast to. How I apply it is ironic from a Christian perspective, perhaps, but it is very, very true. You are putting away the things of childhood, a little later than most, but better late than never.

It's a good thing.

Meanwhile you have some losses and you can and should grieve them, even admit that you long for them. Heck, a quarter century after I left the faith, there are times I still feel a little twinge of envy at the comfortable certitude and false sense of belonging that are no longer available to me. But it is just like a nine year old missing thumb-sucking. You'll move on. Because you can and must and should.

Hug
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