If Jesus Never Existed...
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07-05-2017, 01:00 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Beware the forgeries within Paul's letters.

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07-05-2017, 01:10 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2017 01:14 AM by Aractus.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
The other thing worth mentioning is that most scholars, such as Ehrman, change their mind on certain things as time goes by. One of the latest put forward by Ehrman is that Jesus would have been left up on the cross for his body to decay because "that was part of the punishment" and then later dumped in a mass grave. That's an interesting hypothesis, but the only known crucified person ever dug up, Jehohanan, was laid to rest in an ossuary. Now my point is that this particular view of his seems a bit misguided, obviously if Jehohanan could have been given a decent burial than so could others. But also it shows that good historians keep an open mind, and it changes over time as new developments are brought forward. Carrier doesn't appear to have any malleability in his convictions that Jesus was Paul's celestial messiah. He came to that belief and he's stuck with it, and he gets annoyed that other scholars don't take his belief seriously and refuse to write rebuttals to it. I'd have more respect for Carrier if, like Ehrman, we see his views about historical events change as he researches and new evidence is discovered/published.

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07-05-2017, 01:12 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Quote:In all of these epistles besides Epistle to the Hebrews, Paul does claim to be the author and writer. However, the contested letters may have been forgeries, as that seems to have been a problem among the early church as a whole.

Seven letters (with consensus dates) considered genuine by most scholars:

First Thessalonians (c. 50 AD)
Galatians (c. 53)
First Corinthians (c. 53–54)
Philippians (c. 55)
Philemon (c. 55)
Second Corinthians (c. 55–56)
Romans (c. 57)

The letters on which scholars are about evenly divided:

Colossians
Second Thessalonians

The letters thought to be pseudepigraphic by about 80% of scholars:

Ephesians
First Timothy
Second Timothy
Titus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_ep...thenticity

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07-05-2017, 01:15 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 01:00 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Beware the forgeries within Paul's letters.

Actually those are still useful, they provide valuable insight into early church theology, as well as to Paul's importance in the early church.

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07-05-2017, 02:57 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Thank you Aractus for your detailed interesting posts you have certainly given me a lot to think about. I still don't think he was divine though, who ever he was, real or myth. Wink
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07-05-2017, 02:59 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 10:34 PM)Aractus Wrote:  I already said that Jesus didn't intend to start a whole new religion - several times. That's simply what happened, but what he wanted was to preach the version of Judaism that he believed. And yes he believed the end-times were coming in his lifetime/generation.

LOL. So know you know what Jesus wanted. LMAO.

(06-05-2017 10:34 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Now I've already gone over most of what we know about the development of early Christology: 1. Jesus preached, called disciples, and was crucified. 2. Some of his followers had visions. 3. Paul began preaching his own gospel in the name of Jesus. 4. The gospels were written. There's no "guesswork" whatsoever there.

So you claim, all with no references.

(06-05-2017 10:34 PM)Aractus Wrote:  The term "Christian" is used in Acts of the Apostles and in the letter of 1 Peter - so they did in fact have their own identity by the time Acts was written.

Nope. they were a subsect of JEWS. Calling a subsect by a name, (The Way) does not give them a 'separate identity". They STILL went to synagogue, and we have proof of it.

(06-05-2017 10:34 PM)Aractus Wrote:  They had grown beyond being a Jewish sect - and we know this anyway from the letters of Paul as he preached to gentiles! One of the major points of difference between Judaism and Christianity is that Christians believe in proselytisation - and that goes right back to the start of their movement - even Jesus clearly believed in proselytising.

Yet you have not proven the underlying assumptions. Simply restated your simplistic Sunday School nonsense.

(06-05-2017 10:34 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Were they going to synagogues? Well the Jews certainly were. But their Christian fellowships were held in houses and conducted in secret.

Prove it. If they were still going to synagogue they did NOT have a separate identity. There were many sects of Jews. They were STILL all Jews.

(06-05-2017 10:34 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Why don't you start by telling me what about this you actually disagree with?

LOL.
Everything. You do NOTHING but parrot the Christian Party Line, all with no references. You use Carrier when it's convenient, and rail against mythicists and make up lies about them.

You seem to think you have some authoritative voice. You don't.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-05-2017, 03:45 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Are you a mythicist too Bucky ?
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07-05-2017, 04:20 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 02:59 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  LOL. So know you know what Jesus wanted. LMAO.

I think most scholars would agree that Jesus preached his own flavour of Judaism. I don't see any evidence that he intended to start a new religion.

Quote:So you claim, all with no references.

Well those are basic facts accepted by most scholars, do you disagree with any of them?

Quote:Nope. they were a subsect of JEWS. Calling a subsect by a name, (The Way) does not give them a 'separate identity". They STILL went to synagogue, and we have proof of it.

I think we can say quite confidently that some Christians were not Jewish, especially with Paul establishing churches outside of Jewish territory. The Jewish Christians went to synagogues, and there I agree with you.

Quote:Yet you have not proven the underlying assumptions. Simply restated your simplistic Sunday School nonsense.

I didn't learn any of this at church. I learned it by reading. Stop making straw man arguments.

Quote:Prove it. If they were still going to synagogue they did NOT have a separate identity. There were many sects of Jews. They were STILL all Jews.

They weren't all Jews. Paul specifies in several places that he was sent to preach to the gentiles, and he sends letters to areas not known to be Jewish. Acts corroborates this.

Quote:Everything. You do NOTHING but parrot the Christian Party Line, all with no references. You use Carrier when it's convenient, and rail against mythicists and make up lies about them.

You seem to think you have some authoritative voice. You don't.

I don't use Carrier at all. If you'd bothered to read my replies, I believe he is grossly mistaken about almost everything he claims. He can't even get his own peers to criticise him, let alone agree with him. Going by his own numbers, about 30% of NT scholars are non-religious, and none of them take him seriously. Even the other Mythicists like Price do not agree with his theory!

And how the fuck am I parroting the Christian line? Christians are mistaken on some of their key beliefs such as the resurrection, which I've mentioned repeatedly.

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07-05-2017, 06:57 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 06:21 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
Quote:Every day, people give up their lives for all sorts of claptrap that they conceptualize as a greater good or higher ideal. How many soldiers risk their lives for no higher purpose than to have their fellow soldier's backs? I would take a bullet for my wife or stepson, and while they are special (just like everyone else!) they are hardly god figures or culture heroes, much less actual deities.
Right, but you wouldn't do so for something you know is invented.
People act based not on knowledge, but on belief. If you believe your invisible friend is real, and your one-sided love for him is such that you would die for him, that doesn't make him real. It simply highlights what you have convinced yourself is real.

We know that people believe in and die for sorts of ridiculous and untrue things. That there are martyrs for Jesus is no more proof that Jesus is real than that there are martyrs for Islam (for example). Muslims die on a daily basis in modern times believing that dying while performing jihad makes them a religious martyr and secures their place in the afterlife. By your logic, you should convert to Islam, because after all, people are willingly dying for it, and they wouldn't die for a lie, would they? Would they ??
(06-05-2017 06:21 PM)Aractus Wrote:  If Jesus was invented then who invented him?
The answer has no relevance to what is under discussion. If you're suggesting that you won't believe Jesus was invented unless someone can produce the name and address of his inventor then that is just another version of "I believe in god because he can't be disproved" which is just another way of saying "I believe in god because he can't be proved", which is, of course, a non-sequitur.

I personally am more of the belief that Jesus evolved more than was, as such, invented, anyway. A mythos is a series of interlocking and mutually reinforcing memes which grow organically, so there's no one inventor to be discovered in any event.
(06-05-2017 06:21 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Well here's the thing, no ancient literary source attributes any of the stuff to Fred, and none of the stuff attributed to Jesus have ever been attributed to someone else.
Again, this is naught but argument from attribution / popularity / authority. People assert Jesus said stuff, but this does not then serve as substantiation for those attributions. Besides, if people asserted that Fred said stuff, you as a Christ-believer would simply say it's a lie. My point is that the words attributed to Jesus are an accumulation of traditional attributions and beliefs that cannot derive credibility from simply being ubiquitous, or being the mythos that triumphed over the competing ones. That you would use such a weak and ultimately bereft argument to support your beliefs, is telling.
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07-05-2017, 07:34 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 02:31 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 02:00 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  It's from my Christadelphian teachings and the bible, where it says 'it is appointed man to die once, and then the resurrection.' Still, I've no dog in this fight, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
Ok I just got an education, I was completely unaware of Christadelphianism until this very moment. Despite having experienced about 1000% more study of comparative religion than most random individuals, this one just never came up on my radar. Which speaks to the sheer volume of variants on Christianity.
---

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When SeaJay first mentioned the term Christadelphian, I thought he was just using some kind of local nickname for the church he was brought up in! And of course, my goofy brain says, "Ah, he must have been brought up in the Philadelphia area in Pennsylvania." Blink Laughat

I never expect religiosity in anyone but it's so entrenched in some that when they even casually bring it up, I have no idea to what they might be referring. Shy

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