If Jesus Never Existed...
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07-05-2017, 07:50 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 07:34 AM)kim Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 02:31 PM)mordant Wrote:  Ok I just got an education, I was completely unaware of Christadelphianism until this very moment. Despite having experienced about 1000% more study of comparative religion than most random individuals, this one just never came up on my radar. Which speaks to the sheer volume of variants on Christianity.
---

Ha! Tongue
When SeaJay first mentioned the term Christadelphian, I thought he was just using some kind of local nickname for the church he was brought up in! And of course, my goofy brain says, "Ah, he must have been brought up in the Philadelphia area in Pennsylvania." Blink Laughat

I never expect religiosity in anyone but it's so entrenched in some that when they even casually bring it up, I have no idea to what they might be referring. Shy
When I was at nursing school a girl in my class was a christadelphian I used to wind her up mercilessly by calling her a christadolphin.
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07-05-2017, 08:00 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2017 12:27 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 04:20 AM)Aractus Wrote:  I think most scholars would agree that Jesus preached his own flavour of Judaism. I don't see any evidence that he intended to start a new religion.

LMAO.
You can't even tell anyone what that "flavor" was, or how it is any different from the Judaism of the time. You're nothing but a fraud, and you can't even tell anyone how it is you know what you claim about "most scholars" or show us your poll of scholars.

The fact is, the preaching of Jesus reflects the concerns of LATE 1st Century Rabbinic Judaism, (the Golden Rule), which is what the Rabbis were talking about AFTER the temple was destroyed, and the Diaspora was underway And THAT, in itself is one of the best reasons to think Jesus was nothing but an invented "amalgamation" / "conflation" persona.

YOU said he "started a movement". You can't say what that was, or how you know that, or how it is you know what he was thinking. I never said he was trying to 'start a religion'. YOU are arguing against YOUR OWN strawman.

You are nothing but a fraud. You use Carrier when it's convenient and dismiss all mythicists when you wave your little wrists around.

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load


Corinthians 15 : (LOL)
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time."

a. "Died for our sins" was NOT the role of a messiah. It was cooked up decades later, when the end-times didn't happen. No
"Paul" could have written that, in the time period, claimed. The temple was still standing, (supposedly).
b. When correctly translated "seen of" does not mean "physically 'to see", it doesn't even mean "vision of". It means "came to understand".
c. James WAS ONE of the 12. The timeline in itself, contradicts itself, (and there were only The Eleven at that point).
d. This writer IS CLAIMING to have "seen" Jesus, in THE SAME way he says the others did.
e. Paul claimed elsewhere to have "received the gospel from no man". Really ? How do you get that "Jesus died for our sins" in a revelation, UNLESS the concept was ALREADY planted in your head, and circulating ?

Conclusion : the "creed" here is fake, and it's ALL bullshit. A literary device "placed in his mouth" by whomever cooked it up.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-05-2017, 08:59 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 07:34 AM)kim Wrote:  Ha! Tongue
When SeaJay first mentioned the term Christadelphian, I thought he was just using some kind of local nickname for the church he was brought up in! And of course, my goofy brain says, "Ah, he must have been brought up in the Philadelphia area in Pennsylvania." Blink Laughat

I never expect religiosity in anyone but it's so entrenched in some that when they even casually bring it up, I have no idea to what they might be referring. Shy
Yes, my first reaction is that it sounds like a derisive / satirical label that one of us might come up with. But no, it's an actual thing.
It may be that its British roots cause it to be overlooked by us colonials, I don't know. I had never heard of it before this reference. Also, it's a relatively small group, in terms of raw numbers -- many, perhaps most, of which are not here in the States.
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07-05-2017, 11:39 AM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
I've had two too many rums

This is how it is

You are born, you live, if you have the courage, or just get through day to day by pure chance, then you die

That's it.

There is no yellow brick road, it does, not matter.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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07-05-2017, 11:39 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2017 12:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Until proven otherwise, I consider "Paul" (as well as Jesus) a bogus character.

"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today." (Acts 2:3)

Gamaliel was a VERY VERY prominent Jewish teacher, (Rabbi), one of the two most imporant ones of the early First Century.
http://readingacts.com/2011/09/07/paul-a...-gamaliel/
If you were "favored" enough to actually study with him, you were one of a very select few. Yet, (supposedly) here we have a student of Gamaliel "converting" to Christianity, and NOT ONE Jewish commentator of the day finds that unusual enough to say anything about it. Very strange. Too strange actually.

There was no "Last Supper" for Paul to know about. No Jew would have told his followers to drink a "cup of blood" during Passover week, (an abomination), then, or any time. It could never have happened. Clearly those stories were MADE UP later, after the audience was wide enough not to get how impossible that would be. There is no Eucharist in John's Last Supper. Clearly it hadn't been made up yet, even that late.

The Pauls (yeah, there's at least two, as the journeys are impossible as claimed, as the timelines can't line up, and the philosophies are very different) say they "persecuted the church" (early on).
There was no "church" (the Greek word "ecclesion" meaning "community") that early to persecute.
Paul had no authority to "persecute" anybody in Roman occupied Jerusalem, or anywhere else for that matter. A 'tent maker" ? LMAO. A "tent maker" who just happened to study under Gamaliel ? Bwahahahahaha.
A tent maker who persecutes ? How utterly ridiculous.
There were no Jewish "prisons" for sectarian squabblers, and the Roman occupiers would not give a shit about Jewish sectarian quarrels enough to imprison anyone.

It's all bullshit. Every last word of it is crap.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-05-2017, 12:20 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 11:39 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I've had two too many rums

This is how it is

You are born, you live, if you have the courage, or just get through day to day by pure chance, then you die

That's it.

There is no yellow brick road, it does, not matter.

Right on, SeaJay, in rum veritas or something like that. Now go drink and be merry because some time after tomorrow, we... oh well... Rolleyes

[Image: 13450873_1031816743578595_2573462693725047356_n.jpg]

'Du rhum des femmes c'est ça qui rend heureux
Le diable nous emporte on n'a rien trouvé de mieux..."






I also might - or might not - be listening to Carmina Burana (not by Orff, the *real*, medieval one) and people singing about Bacchus Rolleyes

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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07-05-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
"and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"

What scriptures did Paul have access to at this juncture in time?

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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07-05-2017, 01:10 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(25-04-2017 07:48 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I know some think Jesus did not exist, and some think he did exist but was merely human. This got me thinking if Jesus didn't exist, how did all the stories about him originate?

This isn't the same as asking how did the stories of Zeus/Odin etc exist because they are obviously 'gods' and were never deemed to be human. But there's this story about a man called Jesus, who walked and talked in Galilee and spoke to people etc.

So the question is, if Jesus did not exist, how did the stories start? For me, I think there was a 'man' called Yeshua and he was an apocalyptic prophet of the Jews who spoke against their beliefs. They didn't like it so they brought up charges against him and had him killed.

I can understand how the supernatural stories might be called a myth, but surely that myth had to have come from somewhere?

From an ancient jewish cult, that expected a mystical messiah figure, who was of a spirtual nature, who lived in a platonic-realm, the third-heaven. That folks like Paul believed in, hence why Paul never mentions that Jesus was a human being.

Another 50 years after the fact, the story began to acquire more mundane human elements to make it appeal to larger groups of people, like the romans, and not just jewish adherents to cosmic messiah cult.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-05-2017, 01:51 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 01:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-04-2017 07:48 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I know some think Jesus did not exist, and some think he did exist but was merely human. This got me thinking if Jesus didn't exist, how did all the stories about him originate?

This isn't the same as asking how did the stories of Zeus/Odin etc exist because they are obviously 'gods' and were never deemed to be human. But there's this story about a man called Jesus, who walked and talked in Galilee and spoke to people etc.

So the question is, if Jesus did not exist, how did the stories start? For me, I think there was a 'man' called Yeshua and he was an apocalyptic prophet of the Jews who spoke against their beliefs. They didn't like it so they brought up charges against him and had him killed.

I can understand how the supernatural stories might be called a myth, but surely that myth had to have come from somewhere?

From an ancient jewish cult, that expected a mystical messiah figure, who was of a spirtual nature, who lived in a platonic-realm, the third-heaven. That folks like Paul believed in, hence why Paul never mentions that Jesus was a human being.

Another 50 years after the fact, the story began to acquire more mundane human elements to make it appeal to larger groups of people, like the romans, and not just jewish adherents to cosmic messiah cult.

References required.

Not true. Bogus.
At the beginning of Acts, the Apostles ask Jesus "Art Thou at this time , going to return the kingdom to Israel". There is no "mystical messiah figure". It's the VERY SAME messiah, whose JOB was to get the Romans out, and the kingdom restored.
In Paul, Jesus was said to be "exalted", (not risen, and not a mystical figure, but an "exalted hero", like Elijah, and the Seven Sons of Hannah). One of the (many) apocalyptic heroes who were exalted", whom the writer of Paul claimed to be "the anointed one".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-05-2017, 02:04 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 12:23 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  "and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"

What scriptures did Paul have access to at this juncture in time?

Quote:Jesus claimed another fulfillment of nonprophecy in Luke 24:46. Speaking to his disciples on the night of his alleged resurrection, he said, "Thus it is written and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day." That the resurrection of Christ on the third day was prophesied in the scriptures was claimed also by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4: "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures." In two different places, then, New Testament writers claimed that the resurrection of the Messiah on the third day had been predicted in the scriptures. Try as they may, however, bibliolaters cannot produce an Old Testament passage that made this alleged third-day prediction. It simply doesn't exist.

PROPHECIES: IMAGINARY AND UNFULFILLED, Farrell Till
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