If Jesus Never Existed...
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07-05-2017, 03:05 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2017 03:11 PM by Rachel.)
If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 06:21 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Well here's the thing, no ancient literary source attributes any of the stuff to Fred, and none of the stuff attributed to Jesus have ever been attributed to someone else.

That's not an argument for the authenticity of the sayings attributed to the mythical Jesus. The fact of the matter is that there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus as depicted in the gospel fables contemporary with the time he is supposed to have walked the Earth. All the accounts of his life and teachings were written decades after the time the events are supposed to have occurred. Even assuming a grain of truth for the sayings of Jesus, anyone who has ever played the Telephone Game will know how unlikely it is that those sayings are exact quotations, as they are purported to be.
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07-05-2017, 04:25 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 06:46 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 06:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Rid yourself of childish fears. Think like an adult, not an ignorant child.

It isn't as simple as just, growing up though.

It's about core beliefs fashioned since I was a child and those beliefs reinforced due to an insecure upbringing. It's about obsessive thoughts, PTSD, intrusive thoughts, severe anxiety and Borderline Personality Disorder. My point is when you put all that together, my brain sometimes cannot process information like it should do. Being told it is time to grow up might be what I need to do, but, it is an almost 'hand-waved' statement that sounds way too simplistic to my ears.

I neither said it was easy nor that you had to go it alone.

I strongly suggest cognitive behavior therapy. And chemistry. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-05-2017, 04:29 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 09:14 AM)kim Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 05:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  ---
Do you fear bogeymen in the night?
--- Drinking Beverage

I ... I ... live a a alone ... in a big creeky house. Shocking




Weeping

Make some cocoa and I'll be over to keep you company. Big Grin

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07-05-2017, 04:37 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 02:02 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 01:58 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  Outside of the bible I have nothing to confirm the last three are real. But that's what the bible teaches, I'm all but convinced of it.

Lord Voldemort killed Harry Potters parents with an unforgivable curse. It's in the Harry Potter series, therefore it must be true.

You do realize this is how you sound to everyone saying such an utterly stupid thing right?


(Edit): Even better. Harry Potter died so that everyone might be saved from Lord Voldemorts curse. It's true, it's in book 7 of the Harry Potter series. Harry potter died and rose from the dead even. All to save all of us from Lord Voldemort. Harry Potter is litterally a dying and rising savior god, just like ALL of the hundreds of other ones (including jesus). They are all stories dude.

Harry Potter didn't actually die and come back to life.
That curse killed the last fragment of Voldemort's soul that resided in Harry.
Harry was the last horcrux.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-05-2017, 04:43 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 06:21 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
Quote:Very little about religion "makes sense" so why NOT?

That's not true at all.

Oh, really? What makes sense? Christian theology? Don't be absurd.

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07-05-2017, 05:37 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(06-05-2017 06:21 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Well here's the thing, no ancient literary source attributes any of the stuff to Fred, and none of the stuff attributed to Jesus have ever been attributed to someone else.

That's not true. You were provided yesterday with the link that showed the Sermon on the Mount was not original, in any way.
http://www.thenazareneway.com/beatitudes_of_christ.htm
http://www.thesacredpage.com/2010/02/dea...es-of.html

Many commonalities with Mithras, including "the way, the truth, and the life", (which is also claimed by Horus).
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

There are some who argue the oral origins of the parables, AT ALL.
http://vridar.org/2014/09/21/doubting-an...-parables/

The dishonest attempt to say that Yehohanan was the only Jew known to have been crucified, and that he was buried in an ossuary, is nothing but an attempt to mislead. A flat out lie.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily...n-methods/
https://clas-pages.uncc.edu/james-tabor/...ucifixion/
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4782-crucifixion

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-05-2017, 08:40 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 05:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The dishonest attempt to say that Yehohanan was the only Jew known to have been crucified, and that he was buried in an ossuary, is nothing but an attempt to mislead. A flat out lie.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily...n-methods/
https://clas-pages.uncc.edu/james-tabor/...ucifixion/
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4782-crucifixion

Stop making straw man arguments. I never said he was the only Jew to be crucified, I said he's the only crucified person who's remains have been dug up and identified as being crucified. There's a huge difference.

(07-05-2017 11:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Until proven otherwise, I consider "Paul" (as well as Jesus) a bogus character.

"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today." (Acts 2:3)

As this is the level of intellect I'm dealing with, I don't think it's worth my time debating this with you. Since you don't even believe Paul is a historical figure, all you can offer is straw man arguments.

I didn't say that Acts is a reliable historical document! Some of the things in Acts are based on history, and others are stories just like with the gospels. No one looks at Acts as primary reference material for Paul - they look at his letters. Acts helps corroborate some things he says in his letters though.

You also claimed I used Carrier for my arguments "when it suits me" - I never use Carrier to defend my arguments. I use Carrier only when talking about Carrier. Carrier, as with most mythicists, does not believe in the Q document.

Now, having look at the synoptic problem for myself, I cannot see how anyone can come to such a conclusion. And the reason is that there are word-for-word/letter-for-letter identical passages in Matthew-Luke. This is basically what most scholars think:

[Image: q91HOi3.png]

And this is is what I think - in a nutshell:

[Image: mw0OzDm.png]

This is also a possibility:

[Image: PaWasuh.png]

I can't take Carrier seriously when he can't even solve the synoptic problem competently.

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07-05-2017, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2017 08:59 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Quote:As this is the level of intellect I'm dealing with, I don't think it's worth my time debating this with you.

And yet, you do precisely that. Facepalm
Nice try at changing the SUBJECT.

Quote:Well here's the thing, no ancient literary source attributes any of the stuff to Fred, and none of the stuff attributed to Jesus have ever been attributed to someone else.

I proved that to be FALSE. I see why you would want to change the subject. Whenever theists don't like something, they knee-jerk with the "strawman" shit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-05-2017, 09:04 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
(07-05-2017 08:40 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
(07-05-2017 05:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The dishonest attempt to say that Yehohanan was the only Jew known to have been crucified, and that he was buried in an ossuary, is nothing but an attempt to mislead. A flat out lie.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily...n-methods/
https://clas-pages.uncc.edu/james-tabor/...ucifixion/
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4782-crucifixion

Stop making straw man arguments. I never said he was the only Jew to be crucified, I said he's the only crucified person who's remains have been dug up and identified as being crucified. There's a huge difference.

(07-05-2017 11:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Until proven otherwise, I consider "Paul" (as well as Jesus) a bogus character.

"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today." (Acts 2:3)

As this is the level of intellect I'm dealing with, I don't think it's worth my time debating this with you. Since you don't even believe Paul is a historical figure, all you can offer is straw man arguments.

I didn't say that Acts is a reliable historical document! Some of the things in Acts are based on history, and others are stories just like with the gospels. No one looks at Acts as primary reference material for Paul - they look at his letters. Acts helps corroborate some things he says in his letters though.

You also claimed I used Carrier for my arguments "when it suits me" - I never use Carrier to defend my arguments. I use Carrier only when talking about Carrier. Carrier, as with most mythicists, does not believe in the Q document.

Now, having look at the synoptic problem for myself, I cannot see how anyone can come to such a conclusion. And the reason is that there are word-for-word/letter-for-letter identical passages in Matthew-Luke. This is basically what most scholars think:

[Image: q91HOi3.png]

And this is is what I think - in a nutshell:

[Image: mw0OzDm.png]

This is also a possibility:

[Image: PaWasuh.png]

I can't take Carrier seriously when he can't even solve the synoptic problem competently.

Neither can you.
There is NO WAY Mark and Q didn't know about each other.
http://historical-jesus.info/q.html

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-05-2017, 09:15 PM
RE: If Jesus Never Existed...
Another possibility:

[Image: 7bACeiH.png]

Quote:Whenever theists don't like something, they knee-jerk with the "strawman" shit.

Your refusal to accept accepted the mainstream historiography of Jesus is no different to Holocaust deniers refusing to accept that. The very definition of Holocaust denial is "the belief that the Holocaust did not occur as it is described by mainstream historiography". And it's no different to YEC's refusing to accept science either. To quote Neil Asher Silberman:

"There is no difference whatsoever between Scientific Creationists (who twist every possible bit of empirical evidence to show that Darwin MAY be wrong and that the world COULD have been created in seven days 6000 years ago), with those fundamentalist biblical hardliners who INSIST that every single word of the Bible is inerrant, divinely inspired and that every historical story it contains is as reliable as a news report in the New York Times– no, sorry– the Fox News Network."

That can sentiment, and absolutely should be, applied to all matters of historiography where there is a high degree of confidence among experts. What's the different between you refusing to accept the historicity of Paul and Jesus, and Christians refusing to accept the non-historicity of Moses and the Patriarchs?

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